How long to "learn" a martial art: Revealed!

If it takes 10000 repetitions to "own" a technique (a commonly quoted figure, though not scientifically backed up as far as I know), how long do you reckon it takes to achieve competence in an art? How much time does all that practice need to add up to?

Let's go for kickboxing, as I can sum up common/essential techniques pretty well off the top of my head... Jab, Cross, Hook, Uppercut, Front kick, Roundhouse, Side kick... that bunch will see you through most situations if you're good enough at them. Just from my own tastes, I'll add in the Hook Kick too. Individual techniques are pretty lame on their own, so let's add in, say, 12 simple combinations of these essential techniques. Finally, simple defensive moves need to be drilled just as well: slips, laybacks, ducking, shoulder raise, leg block, inside and outside parries. You also need to practice your footwork, but we'll assume for now you combine that with the techniques. That brings us up to a total of 27 techniques to practice 10000 times each, or 270000 repetitions by the time we've done the whole lot.

In an intensive workout or training session, let's say you have 30 minutes technique time (the rest made up with cardio, sparring, stretching etc etc). We'll say you spend a third of the time resting or moving between techniques, which gives you twenty minutes when you're actively practicing them. Let's call it a technique or combo drilled every second (maybe generous, but it'll do as a starting point). Our remaining 20 minutes = 20 x 60 seconds = 1200 seconds, 1200 repetitions.

If we divide the 270000 repetitions required by the 1200 techniques per training session, it suggests that the number of sessions needed to master the basics is 225. If we assume that a diligent martial artist should have a session that includes all his basics three times every week, then we need 75 weeks, or about one and a half years, to master the basics of an art.

Anyone think these figures relate to reality?



By the way, can anyone give me a figure of the total number of techniques (including movement and defence) for their art: (a) for the essential techniques of the art, and (b) the complete art.

 

"... One Thousand days of training, A beginner; Ten thousand days of training, A master."

-Mas Oyama, founder of Kyokushinkai.

Simpler and more to the point I feel

 

Bravo! (claps) Interesting (and quite entertaining) read. Makes sense in the simplest terms. Let's see what some of the others have to say.

 

No time frame, just "UNTIL THE PERSON CAN APPLY IT NOT JUST PERFORM IT" . All people train and learn at a differant pace.

 

Your learning in martial arts never ends. There is no limit to what you can learn in them.

 

Indeed - it's a major simplification, and as such can only be usefully taken so far. But, I think there is some use to looking at things this way. If nothing else, it reinforces the idea about the importance of practice, practice and more practice in MA success.

Of course, there's no point practicing a technique 10000 times if you do it badly. You also need good instruction and correction (although once you achieve a certain level of maturity in your art, you begin to correct your own techniques).

 

Agreed ... that's why I put "learn" instead of learn as my title! Here of course we're just talking about technical competence.

 

There are two ways a skill can be learned. One is that it has to make a tremendous impression, that the body acquires it immediately. The other is to repeat the practice several times until the body has accepted the technique.

The first is obviously much quicker.

Iolair's statement does make some sense in terms of time. It takes at least a year to master the basic skills.

 

Depends on the MA and what you want to master.

A wing chun student can become a master in 5-7 of dedicated training. If they do athletic excersize training they will be a better master though.

A shaolin monk who wants to learn every weapon form, they say would take 30 years to master. Though there are probably monks who don't use the weapons, then they only take xyears.

Repititions do not make you nescesarily better. is there a point you go from beginer to master? at 9999 am i an uncordinated idiot, but at 10,000 a ginious? no. some people master things better then others, some forms make things easier to master, and some katas might be a waste of time.

 

Very true. The less skills to master, the more sooner the mastery of a martial art.

I agree with your point on the repetitions. But I think you may have misinterpreted me. What I am saying is that at some point of continual practice, you will be able to master a technique.

It depends on the intensity of learning really. It is highly improbable that after 9999 repetitions of a certain technique you are still an uncoordinated idiot. It is just that practice leads to perfection. Why do you think pilots with thousands of hours of flying get hired more than those with less? Even athletic geniuses practice the most basic of their skills in order to maintain what they have.

 

Depends on abilites and understanding of techniques per student. The HUMAN factor is always the most unstable one. I throw about 1000 or so punches a day (or till i get tired) and same with kicks, i dont have weights but i like to work on technique more than anything else, muscle strenght i can worry later.
Reminds me of one of those stories i read about a few years ago -

A Karateka trains twice as hard in class than any other. He constantly asks his Sensei to grade him, very soon he reaches the top of the class in a very short time. One day his Sensei tells the student
"Go to my Sensei at another part of the country as I have nothing else to teach you"
So the student travels to find the other Master. Eventually he arrives to the school and mingles with the other students, braggin about how much he trains and so forth..boring the other students. Then the Master arrives and the student approaches him.
"Master" says the Student. "I wish to be the best Karateka, how long will it take me?"
"10years" replies the Master.
"That is too long" says the Student. "What if i would train twice as hard?"
"20 years"
"What if i trained three times as hard with little sleep?"
"30 years" grunted the Master.
"Why do you keep saying it will take longer the harder i train?"
The Master replied "If you keep only looking at the goal, you wont be able see the journey"

Dont know why it came to mind as i read this thread.
Anyway, I go to kickboxing class to spar now and to learn a few combos.

 

I've trained with some masters that say if you can not defend yourself after 6 one hour long lessons, then you are not training correct. I've also trained with them. It is true - you can defend yourself after 6 hours of training. It doesn't look pretty - but it works.

If you want an art, it can take a lifetime to master. If you want defense, it will take a day.

I know it sounds pretty bold, but I am only reiterating an others' words.

 

Good technique is only half the battle won in self defense. The other half is agression, which is either there naturally, or, with the majority people, takes a long time to accquire.

I like the way those calculations works out - if you think about learning any martial art, it takes about 1 - 2 years for the practioner to become accustomed to the art itself. Thats not to say they become a lean mean fighting machine, but they start to become recogniseable as someone who practises a style rather than flailing arms and legs.

Jroe, I wouln't necessarily put a time limit on how long it takes to master WC. My 'master', although he always prefers to be known as Sifu, defines mastery as not being able to do a technique wrong. In 5 - 7 years, you might have accuired knowledge and good practise in all techniques, but combinations of those with good timing? Thats takes experience , and that only comes with training a long time...

 

"There are two ways a skill can be learned. One is that it has to make a tremendous impression, that the body acquires it immediately. "

That's a good observation and, IME, one of the better ways to learn. Endless repetition is OK, but why fight to overcome what your body can do naturally?

 

"let's say you have 30 minutes technique time (the rest made up with cardio, sparring, stretching etc etc). "

While you are sparring aren't you getting in repititions of the techniques?

 

Why not integrate your cardio, etc into all your drills / sparring?

 

You will learn the motion but unless you practice on a body it won't "fit".You haven't drilled reaction, just memorization. Will you parry if someone kicks your shin? No, that's why it's important to apply what you learn in real life.
I'm not saying go out and pick fights. But then, I'm not saying not to. JK, that is so not what I'm about. But I do believe that "mastery" is only a title unless you have proven that you can handle it in real life.

 

I think that you will find that you have something known as muscle memory. When you ask your muscles to move in a certain way for the first time then you will have to concentrate on it and the action may be sluggish. The more th eaction is repeated then the easier it becomes for you to repeat this action.

A good example of this is trying to pronunciate a new foreign word. At first you find it hard but the more you say it the easier it becomes.

 

Yes, of course ... but in order to produce any figures however, it's necessary to (over)simplify.

 

I read something like this a few years ago and it is still being abused by McDojos. I believe that if the training is proper and diligent (even if hard), a fellow can learn whatever techniques he desires with minimum time.