How effective does Hapkido ,other martial arts like ‪Aikido‬,Judo work on big person

Discussion in 'Hapkido' started by Bubble99, Jan 29, 2015.

  1. Moi

    Moi Warriors live forever x

    Ordinarily yes but I think women face a different issue that's probably easier to equip yourself with the skills to overcome.
    A lot will also depend on the size of the person striking as to whether it has the desired effect or simply escalates the attack. Something to have in the armoury yes but having chewed many punches from a tiny lady they're not as effective as you'd think. Not without some descent muscle behind them
     
  2. Mitch

    Mitch Lord Mitch of MAP Admin

    Any self defence, women's included, is not necessarily about defeating the opponent, it's about defeating their will to continue the attack. That is a delicate balance of their desire for something (demonstrating power, venting anger, material gain, sexual gratification, a mix of all of those and more) vs their fear of being caught, punished, losing face, etc.

    Mitch
     
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2015
  3. Indie12

    Indie12 Valued Member

    If you can't throw them...... shoot em!! ;) just kidding!!:woo:

    I've personally found that Hapkido, Aikido, Judo, etc.... do work on both smaller and bigger people. But technique is key!!:Aegis:
     
  4. Moi

    Moi Warriors live forever x

    I'd still count that as defeating the attacker if you can stop them
     
  5. Juddy

    Juddy New Member

    Bigger opponents

    I'm a hapkidoist and weigh 71kg, one of my main training partners weighs about 130kg and is over 6ft. Techniques especially joint locks are particularly hard to perform but not impossible. It requires you to think outside the box a little bit.
    For example you have to exploit that he will move slower than me, so going for an armbar might not work but then suddenly changing direction to an outer wrist lock or changing levels and going for the legs is effective.
    I've found the more years you train, the less pretty and exact the techniques need to be,
    Hope this helps
     
  6. armanox

    armanox Kick this Ginger...

    Back to the original question.

    Throws often rely on leverage. And with AKD/HKD (I can't speak for Judo, I haven't done it) you often use your opponents momentum as part of the techniques. A bigger person is harder to move, but also has more momentum to use when they are in motion. You fight larger people differently then you fight smaller people, but the arts teach techniques applicable to both scenarios.

    Can a Hapkido practitioner throw someone who is ~60lbs heavier? I may have some demonstration videos with just that.... (Yes, they are demonstrations, but the thread was opened with demos.) (The taller guy in the second video is the same uke from the first - he simply forgot to bring his belt and is wearing my white belt. His rank didn't magically change).

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qeBMcx7--lE"]Marc and Tim Self Defense - YouTube[/ame]

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gVNsZbU81Ck&t=36"]SelfDefense - YouTube[/ame]
     
  7. bushidoka

    bushidoka Valued Member

    Size does matter... Impact = MASS x Speed squared (Simplistically)

    If you are of the same skill set, the bigger, stronger fighter will win. He can absorb your strikes, power through your defense, and force less precise techniques to work.

    Add to that, it is always nice to be able to just pick some one up and slam them using brute force alone ;)
     
  8. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    work on big person

    In order to make your throw to work on big person, you will need to borrow his force. If you drag your opponent's arm and move in circle, your opponent will either resist against you, or yield into you. In either case, you can borrow his resistance force or yielding force, add into your own force, and take advantage on it.
     
  9. 47MartialMan

    47MartialMan Valued Member

    My Judo instructor often pair smaller with larger. The larger was not "willing" to be thrown. Hence, the technique had to be executed properly

    Other than what others are saying, I will add to Mitch:

    "is not necessarily about defeating the opponent, it's about defeating their will to continue the attack. That is a delicate balance of their desire for something (demonstrating power, venting anger, material gain, sexual gratification, a mix of all of those and more) vs their fear of being caught, punished, losing face, etc."


    Self Defense is "also" about trying to not get in the physical predicament and trying to flee.

    I cant count the times I have heard from people (including my wife and myself) where Verbal De-Escalation and/or to flee was far better than getting physical

    If one cannot avoid a physical conflict, studying one art for a short time will not help you. Because at that moment, chances are you will forget what you had studied (from a time as a novice)
     
  10. rabid_wombat

    rabid_wombat Valued Member

    Having seen and practiced a number of techniques taught through KSW and Hapkido stylists, having talked candidly with them and having tried some of these joint locks in BJJ rolls (with approval and without them having seen the techniques), this is my personal conclusion about the viability of the type of joint locks they utilize.

    The way they are taught out of the box, many of them don't seem to work well. From my experience, there are a few reasons for this:

    1) They don't tend to do the initial instruction with the idea of "softening"/distraction techniques, which are essential. A lot of times these wrist locks can be applied during grip fights, or baiting an opponent.

    2) Some of the techniques require almost single-minded intent on the part of the attacker to maintain control over whatever limb or piece of clothing of yours that they have a hold on; most times an attacker is going to be more likely to change up than hang onto you while you try to mangle their joints. Requiring you to flow from technique to technique in a way that most students probably haven't done. (And if they let go, why aren't you running?)

    3) Learning these techniques in most classes really doesn't prepare you for the reaction an actual attacker would have to it, if you do manage to land it. They probably aren't going end up where you think they will, how you think they will.

    That being said, a lot of the wrist locks I have been able to pull off with small adjustments in live rolls. Most during grip fighting, but frequently from attempts by my opponent to exert control over a limb because their attention is split between the attempt to control and their own offensive game plan.
     
  11. bushidoka

    bushidoka Valued Member

    "My Judo instructor often pair smaller with larger. The larger was not "willing" to be thrown. Hence, the technique had to be executed properly"

    -It is much easier for a smaller person to throw a larger person generally. It is harder for the larger person to get his posture low enough to throw a small person technically. Talking body throws of course, not outside locks and throws...
     
  12. GoldShifter

    GoldShifter The MachineGun Roundhouse

    Arighty, well I'm a little guy but I've had to do leg sweeps and throw people regularly for Kajukenbo training. It's the "Ju" part of our curriculum, and encompasses Judo and JJJ. A lot of the things we do like a previous poster has said, "Borrowing their force." That sounds pretty "East Asiany" and philosophical but it's true. You are also putting yourself in a position to put your strongest muscles to take advantage of their "weaker" muscles. It's also a lot of physics when you come down to it. There's a difference between muscling through a move and doing the move correctly, technique wise. Yes, you'll have to use muscle here and there to do the move but on that same note, you also have to use proper technique so you aren't tiring yourself out. Proper technique will be easier for a smaller person, like myself, to work on rather than growing about 5 inches and packing on a ton of weight. Granted I did pack on a ton of weight coming into University. (Freshman 15 + Rugby = Freshman 25)
     
  13. holyheadjch

    holyheadjch Valued Member

    Shorter and taller, not smaller and larger.

    For many throws, being shorter can make it easier to get your hips below uke's hips. That said, there are lots of throws where being taller is an advantage.

    It is always better to be bigger and stronger than your opponent in grappling. There is no exception that I can think of.
     
  14. Archibald

    Archibald A little koala

    I've been thinking about this a bit recently and I think that extra length on your partner gives them more of an advantage than size or strength.

    If someone has longer limbs (which for me is just about everyone) with a bit of strength behind them I find it almost impossible to throw them because their extra geometry allows them to just step around the throw, even when I've hit full extension. To make them work you have to commit to throws to an extent that the taller people don't need to.

    I find the same in boxing - I'm more comfortable sparring with higher skilled partners who are my height then less skilled partners who have a much greater reach.

    Then of course you get the REALLY tall guys that you can just burrow into and they can't get a proper hold of you. I guess there's a sweet spot for height?

    I'll add the caveat that this could just be my relative inexperience talking :p
     
  15. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    I relate differences in size, length, etc. as part of using the concepts of Yin and Yang.

    The analogy I like is one of a push up. When you do a push up against the earth, you move the length of your arms, but the earth is so much more massive that it doesn't appear to move at all. Yet you are pushing against the earth.

    The same with breaking the posture and taking down a heavier opponent. I have to move more to stretch out the heavier opponent because I'm smaller. The amount I move is like doing a push up against them. There is a balance between the amount I move and the amount they move.

    Conversely, if I'm much heavier than my opponent, I don't have to move as much to stretch them out because they end up moving more.

    If my opponent has a longer reach than me, then rather than looking at it as I have to move more to get inside their reach, I should look at it as I must get them to move more to close the gap on me. For example, I get them to chase me, the faster they come at me, the less I have to move towards them to get inside their reach. Such as make a level change and shoot in.

    Conversely, if I have greater reach than my opponent, I want to move methodically/slowly towards my opponent to back them into a corner where they can't run away. Forcing my opponent to have to make big and fast movements to attempt to get inside my reach. When they attempt this, use lateral movement to evade and counter.
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2015
  16. holyheadjch

    holyheadjch Valued Member

    Being long is good for throws like uchi mata, sasae tsuri komi ashi, osoto gari etc. Being short is good for throws like seoinage, ogoshi, drop sode etc. A big part of judo is working out what works for you and specialising in those techniques.

    The same isn't true when it comes to relative strength. The stronger guy always has an advantage.
     
  17. proteinnerd

    proteinnerd Valued Member

    One of the things that people either don't understand or forget to explain to the untrained person is that most of these "flipping" techniques aren't actually throws.

    Yes the person goes flying through the air and it looks great in a demonstration but the technique is actually a joint destruction. The "flipping through the air" portion is the uke consciously jumping and using a breakfall to effectively stop their wrist or elbow or whatever from being dislocated.

    Hapkido and JJJ (not sure about aikido sorry) do of course do perform actual throws as well (Hip Throw, Shoulder Throw etc) where the opponents balance is taken and they are tripped or physically picked up and actually thrown to the ground but the real flashy moves, like from the first video, where they send someone flying through the air are most often wrist/elbow sometimes shoulder destructions.

    In other words, if this was performed on someone in a real self defence situation, they would probably just collapse to the ground with a dislocated and pretty much useless wrist, elbow and or shoulder.
     
  18. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    If you are

    - taller than your opponent, you will use "upper body control" to control your opponent's "head (or upper lapel)", and apply top down force.
    - shorter than your opponent, you will use "lower body control" to control your opponent's "waist (or waist belt)", and apply bottom up force.
     
  19. armanox

    armanox Kick this Ginger...

    Just to add, Aikido is indeed the same way. Compare kote gaeshi ([ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zOCf5-A2iLc"]Shomen Uchi Kote Gaeshi (1) - YouTube[/ame]) and say (my personal favorite) tenchi nage ([ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4VtEkzIsTjA"]Aikido - Tenchi nage - YouTube[/ame]) - same principle.
     
  20. Bubble99

    Bubble99 Valued Member

    Why don't these guys and girls just eat more and bulk up?

    If you can't lift 100 pounds person off the ground more than your weight than may be they should think why they are in a martial arts class.

    If guy or girl weight is at 150 pounds being 6 feet tall they should be able to pick up other guy or girl weight is at 250 pounds being at 6 feet tall.

    If they are so weak that they cannot pick up 100 pounds they should think why they are in a martial arts class.

    Get job being a mover these guys pick up lots of things 100 pounds more than there weight.
     

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