How does one cross train martial arts?

I've been pondering over this for quite awhile. so when you cross train do you try different combination of attacks or you try mixing maybe a punch with a stance from another martial art? Or do you use all the basis of all the martial arts you learn to construct your own style?

 

Essentially I cross trained because I'm a fickle bugger that wasn't happy doing one thing and because it was lots of fun.
When I did it most I was doing Thai, Sub grappling, Rapid Arnis and BJJ all in the same week.
As such the arts complimented each other and dovetailed fairly well (because they are basically a striking art, 2 grappling arts and a weapon art).

When I crossed trained TKD and Karate it was much harder because they are so similar, with subtle differences but also cover a lot of the same ground.

 

i never heard of this rapid arnis. how did you cross train karate and tkd btw?

 

You go to a TKD class and do TKD.
You go to a Karate class and do Karate.

At home you practice both.

 

oh yeah how many people here cross train baguazhang and xing yi quan, and if so how do you guys cross train it? is it how one would cross train tkd and karate? since their both of the same type?

 

so it's not really like trying to make your own style right? Just for clearance of my understanding.

 

No. Making your own style is not really something that happens deliberately, more the eventual product of taking on board lessons from other people and allowing yourself to change as a result of them rather than staying dogmatically fixed in someone else's way of doing things.

Cross training is more about using people who move in different ways to teach you different things about your own skill set as well as learning some new tricks.

 

Everyone constructs their own style - whether they want to or not. I'd be perfectly happy if I could maintain the text-book ortho boxer's stance that I start out with. But when my opponent begins advancing and throwing, its all over - my body does what my body does and I have to leave it to my coach, opponent or vid to tell me what my form was after that.

If I go from ortho boxing to a Muay Thai stance - it wasn't from any sort of plan, I can tell you.

Wish I had a penny for every time I worked out this or that in my head but things ALWAYS move far, far too quickly to remember any of that.

Chin down, hands up, elbows in <---- then I'm good.

Don't know how you fellows manage machine language precision recall on demand for something so esoteric as the nuances between Shaolin boxing, JKD and whatever else under such conditions.

Of course, you are the Masters and I am but a learner

 

Didn't see your post.

 

Well in a way it is like making your own style. I just wouldn't try and teach it to someone.
If I have to fight someone "Karate" won't do the fighting for me. "I" have to do the fighting and I'll use whatever I find useful to do so.
So in a sense everything I've ever done come together in me as "my style".

Primarily I cross trained (and still do) because I get different things from different arts and gyms that I like and just one places doesn't tick all the boxes.
In many ways fighting ability (such as it is) is secondary to just the sheer enjoyment of the process of training.

 

There's a signature waiting to happen.

 

I've the first bid

 

I think one of the keys to cross-training is to be ready to cross-train. I've crossed trained in several arts for only a few months each. Many of these were when I was looking for ways to improve because I didn't feel my progress in my main art was going fast enough. I picked up a few tricks and the training did help me, but in the short term, I probably would have improved more by just training harder in my main art.

The reason is when you learn something new, it can mess up the way you do things you already are supposed to know. A constant, two steps forward, sometimes one step back, sometimes three steps back. For example, I might start using boxing right crosses instead of a karate reverse punch... but in the end, just end up with sloppy technique.

On the other hand, when I was more ready to cross-train as part of regular hard training... In other words, I cross-trained with the goal of learning rather than trying to come up with better ways to do things (e.g. when I gave up on trying to form my own style to beat all other styles), then I got more benefit from cross-training. I have cross-trained in some other arts for many years. I concentrate on learning the fundamentals and understanding principles. In doing so, I am learning the fundamentals so that I can teach them to others as well as do them myself. So instead of using a boxing punch as superior to a karate punch... I concentrate on the fundamentals of boxing and karate punches. The fundamentals of karate punches helped me improve my boxing and the fundamentals of boxing punches helped me improve my karate.

There are many reasons for this, not just that fundamentals represent principles that are shared, but also the experience of training these things with different people that move and act differently than I do (a point already brought up by JWT).

 

You have to develop your favor "entering strategy" and "finish strategy". Your "entering strategy" and "finish strategy" may need principles from other system. Even you cross train, you still need to have one strong base.

For example, you can use Bagua circular footwork to move toward your opponent's side door and force your opponent to turn with you, you then use your XingYi linear footwork to cut in and enter into his front door. You may finish with your Bagua throw or you may finish with your XingYi punch.

IMO, to cross-train "similiar" styles may not be needed. For example, both the praying mantis and the WC systems all have the Fu Shou application. If you train one, you done need to train the other.

When you cross-train, you don't have to take everything from that system. You should just pick whatever that you need. For example, I have also cross trained the WC system. I like the WC Tan Shou. It enhances my defense ability big time. I'll also use the WC Bong Shou in clinch to protect my head (but I will never use it in striking range to expose my elbow). Since the WC Fu Shou also exists in the parying mantis system, it doesn't add any extra benefit to me.

When you cross train, you are the master. All your "minor" training systems are your slaves.

 

Don't get me wrong though...cross training is definitely a way to gain better fighting skills too. Adding pieces to the puzzle that your current art or club isn't providing.
Needs to be well managed though.

 

It really depends on why you're doing it, Mugen. I think the word "cross training" probably gets used to describe several pretty different processes. And I'm not saying that the term is being misused in any given instance either. Just different strokes for different folks.

I'm also not convinced that people's reasons remain the same throughout the process. Someone might start the process for one reason and persist for entirely another. That'll hopefully make more sense in a minute.

In my view, here are the different approaches to crosstraining:

1) You have a specific objective in mind. Often a competitive format, but not necessarily. You identify gaps in your own skillset that are relevant to that objective, and seek out training opportunities to plug those gaps. This describes the MMA fighter who's strong on kickboxing and weak on grappling, so he seeks out a BJJ trainer to help him address that deficiency. Alternatively, someone interested in self defense might seek out a weapons instructor to supplement his knowledge of empty hand. In either case, there's a deliberate decision made to try and add to an existing skill set.

2) You train in more than one art side by side. There's some bleed between the two, in all likelihood. But you're taking up something else out of interest, curiosity, fun, etc. There may be osmosis between the different styles you're studying, but it may be as simple as some improved attribute (e.g., capoeira is a lot of fun, but it's not going to help you in the boxing ring specifically, except perhaps to give you a really keen sense of balance, aerobic conditioning, rhythm, etc.). I have this suspicion that a fair few of us begin a crosstraining experience thinking we're in Category 1 and then stick with it even after we feel we might be in Category 2.

I've practiced Western Fencing twice in my life. Not for very long in either case. But I think I used both of these rationales. The first time, in college, I quite deliberately wanted to look at the crossover between Western fencing and the Filipino martial arts that I was already studying. Specifically, I wanted to practice sparring with more of a blade mentality than stick (having already competed in stick sparring). Happily, the Fencing Club were a bunch of recreationists and were perfectly happy to ditch the Olympic Fencing rules and play. I learned much less about the art of fencing, but learned some good lessons with regard to FMA.

The second go around, some friends and I just thought it looked fun and decided to take fencing lessons through the local recreation center. I learned much more about fencing as an art and really had no pretense of applying what I learned to FMA. I'm sure there was some carry over in terms of distancing, parrying, etc. But that wasn't the intent. It just seemed like it would be fun.

3) You want to "found your own style" by incorporating existing styles into something new, effective, and necessary. Then you want to name it and be master of all you survey. Don't do this. Seriously. Just don't.

 

Sufficient time in grade necessary to be able to separate the wheat from the chaff.

I suppose if the situation exists where a person begins cross-training too early, there exits its obverse. Would a Roy Jones, Jr. or his Shotokan equivalent be able to successfully assimilate a new style into another that has been mastered so well for so long?

 

It can be very difficult to try to learn something new, especially when someone is really set in their ways (e.g. like me). Old habits come out when tested under pressure.

I believe one way to look at new things is whether they are related to fundamentals or related to basics/structure. I think fundamentals can be learned and applied almost immediately because they just are best practices that everyone should know. For example, I cross-train in BJJ and I am shown an escape from a mount. This technique has many fundamentals involved that transfer not just to BJJ and ground fighting, but also how to maintain mobility when against a wall and when using hooks, etc. I could be a boxer, but still benefit from the fundamentals I learned through BJJ cross-training.

On the other hand, some things take a long time to develop... these are the things that require structure. For example, many of the basics in karate are to help develop structure. Structure takes a long time to develop because it often starts as something unnatural and we must train it so that it becomes second nature... this requires not just the body mechanics, but rewiring how we do things.

For someone that is a long time karateka who cross-trains in boxing, for example, the first thing is to identify what is related to basics/structure and what is related to fundamentals. Concentrate on the fundamentals first and IMHO you will get the most benefit. Then use the basics/structure training to help perfect your techniques (all of them), not just what you are cross-training in. (I call this looking at the bigger picture.)

This is like coaching a hitter in baseball. You can take what they already do well and make adjustments for improvement (fundamentals) or you can tell them to forget everything they know and start swinging in a specific way (basics/structure). You will get the most bang for the buck making adjustments to follow good fundamentals... however, in many cases, to improve beyond this, you have to make structural changes that take a long time to develop.

An example of boxing and karate. There is an exercise in karate to move from zenkutsu dachi to kokutsu dachi and back. In boxing there is a concept of head movement. A fundamental of good head movement is learning how to use the legs for head movement instead of leaning with the upper body. If you learn fundamentals for head movement in boxing, because it is a fundamental, you can apply that in karate with the zenkutsu dachi to kokutsu dachi exercise to improve your karate.

 

Well thought out answer, Reb.

<---- As a boxer and working strictly under the boxing rule set, I think you mean to imply.

Never quite thought of it that way before, but it does make sense. That would lead me to think the single greatest benefit of cross-training lies in the discovery of a new degree of freedom (mechanics) in relation to one's body.

In other words, a new way you can move that you weren't quite aware of in the context of your previous MA experience.

Going back over the responses to the O.P from the MA vets here, movement and/or that which results from a body's adjusting to the awareness of a new operating axis ('maintaining mobility', 'keen sense of balance...rhythm', etc) is the common factor in many of the responses; even if the reasons (that one is consciously aware of) for doing CT change over time, as Ap Owen pointed out.

 

I think you got what I was trying to say. I didn't want to say that BJJ as a system would be helpful for a boxer in a boxing match. However, some of the fundamentals of lateral movement, such as when back is against the ropes or a wall, are covered very well in BJJ and that could help a boxer.

For example, when against a lot of constant pressure... take a look at this boxer named Broner. He is moving forward most of the time at his opponent. If you were his opponent, learning good lateral movement while engaging the elbows (such as fundamental in BJJ) could be helpful.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUsbfsLV6jc"]Showtime Sports Presents: Broner vs. Malignaggi - YouTube[/ame]

If you just move to the side, the angle can be cut off by your opponent. If you engage the elbows, you can get to a shoulder to shoulder position with better control of the shoulder and hip of the opponent, IME.