How do you teach Practical Tae Kwon Do

Discussion in 'Tae Kwon Do' started by Liam Cullen, Feb 4, 2009.

  1. paulol

    paulol Valued Member

    really?

    my instructor graded in Ryu Kyu Kempo, Ju Jutsu and Arnis at the same time while at seminars with the instructors of those styles. in fact he has often said that because he had already learnt the Chung Do Kwan TaeKwon-Do version of the Pyong-Ahn/Heian/Pinan etc versions of katas he was advanced very quickly in the Okinawan based art.

    the similarites are that we are both practicing TKD! while i have adopted Pyong-Ahn forms i also still practice Chang Hon forms, and work with a group of Chang Hon based TKD clubs in my county.

    through my work with Prof Clark i have met with Karate instructors who have awarded me a 3rd Dan with them to acknowledge my understanding of the martial arts and helping them use the kata for a more solid self defence base. but then i don't see TKD and Karate as being very different from eachother. the only separation from each of them is political and both branches can learn much from eachother if the blinkers were taken off.

    well thats your choice Stuart and you have every right to stay true to your path. in the AoDenkouKai it does not matter what form system you practice as all the forms in the TKD and Karate based styles have the same movements. i teach people from TKD, Karate, Ju Jutsu and Aikido everyone that comes to my school is treated as an equal and given the chance to add ideas to the melting pot. i hope to do some more escrima work in the next 12 months and a whole lot more ju jutsu.

    i've covered the fact that we are both doing TKD based work above.

    JSMDK is a martial arts school that is TKD/Korean Karate based, the idea of the True Spirit Martial Arts School is that the individual finds the best way for them to express themselves in the Martial Arts. While they are also asked to follow the self defence path that best suits their body type and abilites.

    we both teach a basic TKD/Karate syllabus to bring people to the level of black belt and run an associate program (which matt is under) for people who would like help in grading or assesment in integrating ellements of the what we do in relation to pp's and applications etc.

    i'm sorry that you think we have moved away from TKD Stuart. as i do not feel that we have. what have we done but move away from the main structure of a Chang Hon based association many of which would have been in the ITF at one point and then only break away to keep much of the same structures and syllabus of the association they had left. Thus not really addressing the issues within the style and in some cases making them worse.

    while i have adopted the Pyong-ahn forms as part of my teaching and training i done so only to get a better idea of what the original flow of movements in Chang Hon forms were. in many cases i have found an application in the Pyong-ahns/Heian/Pinan forms and found that the way it worked out in the Chang Hon was actually much better. but i might not have realised that application without having looked over the fence at what the neighbours were doing first ;)
     
  2. mattsylvester

    mattsylvester One proud daddy!

    Plus applications, self-defence etc. Plus the fact that he's a 3rd dan in TKD and knows the patterns that we do, as well as the patterns that he does.

    Nope, you misread it. The students having to grade need to know the patterns, but I used Liam as an example as a Grader, not gradee. I'm sure you could take part in grading Karate students. You'd be looking for certain aspects and the club examiner would be grading them on their knowledge of the actual pattern.

    JSM has an open syllabus so that people who want to, can grade in it using their patterns, their applications, their knowledge etc. Because at that point rather than being 'just' a system, it's also a concept. PTKD is also centred around a concept, so you're basically doing the PTKD concept, so is Liam (it seems), Simon O'Neill etc. You're not however doing the system/style.


    No worries, but you seem to have crossed from being graded to grading. I agree with the first point i.e. if you want to grade in Karate you need to know the Karate patterns, but I don't necessarily agree that you can't participate on a grading panel if the arts aren't similar. Grading someone in BJJ if you're a TKD guy would be wrong.

    I'm a little confused as well, didn't you get your 4th dan from someone who doesn't do TKD, based on the advice of someone with him who does? How does that differ from having someone who does Karate, helping out with someone who does TKD? The TKD guy grades on the key points of the TKD (although they'd obviously need to know the forms as you say). So if an ITF guy advised a Karate guy that 'you' were worth the 4th Dan and you'd been doing ITF patterns that would be cool. I'd be a bit concerned if the ITF guy was advising based on WTF patterns when he didn't know the WTF patterns for example.

    Because of the previous stuff.


    As I said above, and you mention below, Paul is a 3rd dan in TKD. So he has the knowledge.

    Correct me if I'm wrong Paulo, but you got a 3rd dan BB in TKD before deciding to call what you do JSMK as it was (to you) not following what is commonly known as TKD anymore - thats cool and probibly a good move if you felt that way - now reading a recent post Matt said after BB's his guys will study Japanese kata, so how does that qualify as PTKD as opposed to PKarate?

    Unfortunately, the politics of mainstream TKD are just too much. I don't want to be constricted by a syllabus that dictates 1-step sparring and breaks it down into hands only, feet only, hands and feet, jumping feet etc, with no take downs, no pressure points etc. Now, I could do it independantly as you have, but I'd still be at the same position regarding gradings when it came to it under what I understand you're saying. I couldn't have a 'normal' TKD instructor along because they wouldn't understand the pressure points knowledge, probably wouldn't understand the fine points of self-defence etc etc.

    But, I can (and do) advise clubs and students on how to do these things, give seminars, write books that appeal to white belts through to black belts, that show how things can be interpreted, tested etc and promote TKD on the forum.

    Don't forget that I teach PTKD the style, but push the concept of Taekwondo as being practical as well.

    It will still be shaken up :)
     
  3. mattsylvester

    mattsylvester One proud daddy!

    No worries, you're just Evangelical preaching in the Dark Continent :)

     
  4. mattsylvester

    mattsylvester One proud daddy!

    Oh, forgot to say that the original patterns of TKD were the Pyong-ahn/Pinan/Heian which Master Choi Jung Hwa practised every day. And which some systems of TKD still practice.

    So is it the patterns that make up TKD? If so, should the WTF be told that they're not actually doing Taekwondo? Nope. They're doing their TKD.
     
  5. Van Zandt

    Van Zandt Mr. High Kick

    :topic:

    I think it's great people are so open to new ideas in the martial arts today. 20 years ago people like Matt, Stuart and others would have been called heretics and burned at the stake. I think we're lucky to practice martial arts in this new era.

    Ok, soppy bit over.
     
  6. StuartA

    StuartA Guardian of real TKD :-)

    Hi Paulol,,

    Thanks for he in-depth reply.

    Its true, Ive never heard of grading in multiple black belts a one sitting, so to speak. I agree that people can advanced quicker with an art under thier belt already, but with the standard training times taken into account (as opposed to training for 10 years or something) I can't see it for an indepth system (and I say this as both you and Matt seem to have an indepth system taught and thus lots of stuff that must be learnt)! I know of many instructors with multiple BBs (TKD/Hapkido, TKD/Kick Boxing etc.) and none of them that I know of cover both styles at one grading sitting. I dunno, maybe its just me.. has anyone else seen multiple black belts achieved at a grading?

    Stuart
     
  7. StuartA

    StuartA Guardian of real TKD :-)

    Hi Matt,
    Yup, I get Paulols credentials as an examiner.. its just that fact that his syllabus is different to yours even though it crosses at certain points. My point is, are the crossing sections enough to warrent a BB in it!


    But JSMD uses different patterns to you (for their basic syllabus), which is why I'm confused regarding a second BB - as they wont know the patterns!!

    Maybe for a BB already, though I woudnt be comfortable doing that because theirs much more to a system than just knowing the forms of a particular type. If I'm a grading examiner and put my name on things then they have to perfrom to what I require and a different style wouldnt be doing that really, plus like I said, shoe on the other foot is that there are intrinsic things a system would merit that I'm not familar with so couldnt judge and hence would be a fair grading due to that.

    Does that mean as long as they know the concepts required they can gain a BB in the system, hence why they could gain a BB at both PTKD & JSMD at the same grading? Can't speak for Liam, but I know Simon O'Neill is the grade he is in his system (KKW) and teaches his 'concepts' but doubt they would become a grading in their own right, without the rest of the 'system' involved. Kinda like me, I cover much of what you cover (though only with teenagers/adults), but they are 'in addition' and they must knon the compelte system as well. Maybe I'm just stuck in the 'systems' mode and look at concepts as additions to a system, I dunno lol

    I was looking at it from both sides :)

    Isnt this a slight contradiction or did you mean above - if the arts ARE similar -?

    You are indeed. He holds a 6th degree in TKD but doesnt advertise it anymore as he no longer does it on a regular basis (He simply refers to it as TKD experience lol, but its a little more than that) and only puts ranks down as to what he teaches. The 4th Dan (now 5th) you mention didnt advise him on whats what in TKD, but rather anything that may have changed since his (the examiners) hey day in it so to speak and the promotion had nothing to do with any advice in the mode you refer to it. Also, my examination took place over 4 days and without me knowing about it - in that time I did patterns, sparring (both stand up and ground), breaking, applications, SD stuff, plus standard training stuff, as well as 'well into the night' on all aspects of TKD and my book (which was in manuscript mode at the time) wasnt taken as a 4th degree thesis! Remember we all lived togetor for 4 days, which is a little different from someone popping on a karate/TKD panel for a couple of hours to grade someone - at least I think it is!

    As an aside to that, I dont disagree with recognition at later/higher levels (such as Paulols example in his other post), but thats at later levels or years of training, having put into the art as guys like us (you, me, Paulol etc.) often get over looked because we dont hob nob with the big boys or pay the associations fee's etc. so credit where credits due.


    Think we going round in circles a bit lol


    I hear ya on point 1, but if your solo you dont have to be restricted in the way you state!

    But as you`ve said already, your okay with advisors for bits like that, so it woudnt matter would it?

    Is PTKD a style? I thought Ch'ang hon TKD was the style and PTKD was the concepts that utilized part of that style of TKD!! :confused:



    They already are.. we just need more people doing it lol

    Stuart
     
  8. paulol

    paulol Valued Member

    let me just clear this up!

    we are not talking about people grading in two different styles really. more that grades will be acknowledged by two groups or schools of TKD as opposed to one!
     
  9. mattsylvester

    mattsylvester One proud daddy!

    I think so :) But that's right now. By the time people get ready to do it, it might have changed :) Flux.


    Paul can answer this. Plus, the patterns really aren't hard to learn.


    Does that mean as long as they know the concepts required they can gain a BB in the system, hence why they could gain a BB at both PTKD & JSMD at the same grading? Can't speak for Liam, but I know Simon O'Neill is the grade he is in his system (KKW) and teaches his 'concepts' but doubt they would become a grading in their own right, without the rest of the 'system' involved. Kinda like me, I cover much of what you cover (though only with teenagers/adults), but they are 'in addition' and they must knon the compelte system as well. Maybe I'm just stuck in the 'systems' mode and look at concepts as additions to a system, I dunno lol


    Errr, yeah :)

    Gotcha.

    I was using your argument. But again the damn quotes have gone and I'm meant to be painting hallway :)

    I teach PTKD and I consider what I'm doing to be a style, however the concept that Taekwondo is, can and should be practical also exists. Bit like JKD was a concept, but then it became a style as well.

    I use the name Practical Taekwondo to differentiate myself clearly from the other clubs in the area as well as to give my syllabus an appropriate name/label.

    If I called it Chang Hon Taekwondo then people might think I do what you do, or you do what I do. Which we don't. You have your own system of Taekwondo and I have mine which I call Practical Taekwondo.
     
  10. paulol

    paulol Valued Member

    i think i'm gonna cry :cry:

    :)
     
  11. StuartA

    StuartA Guardian of real TKD :-)

    As I said in a previous post, its not really something I would be 100% sure about doing, but that said I do see certain things as intrinsic to TKD and the further away from those things people get, the less TKD it becomes. I think thats the point Im trying to make rather than say theres a definitive line as to what is/isnt TKD anymore.

    Thats fine, I dont study KKW TKD! :) I see it the same as not being a Black belt in Goju-Ryu etc.

    As I said, it depends on how far they go with what they take out or change.

    Interesting point!

    I've not added much TBH, just emphasised better ways of practing parts already there IMO.

    ITF is an organsiation, not a system of TKD, thus it makes no difference either way.

    I'm doing Ch'ang Hon TKD not my TKD. My point being, within my style (Ch'ang Hon) we cover everything that dictates that style - we havnt taken anything away. My students could go to an ITF grading or a TAGB grading perform what they require as an organsiation.

    Not sure what Master Choi has got to do with the question!! But just to touch upon what he said.. moving towards the martial is moving towards the physical, not the spiritual/Do.!! Also, his father pushed the DO alot and concentrated more on the technical IMO.. personally I think its the martial side that needs work in the big scheme of things! Hence this

    Sorry, what point? I asked what things seen as TKD (apart from tul) you still cover/do.. but you`ve only listed thinsg you no longer do!!! :confused:

    Have you learnt all the patterns out of interest? What patterns do you utilize btw?


    Translation please..


    Well bits of mine have been published in combat, so you probibly seen some, but either way it doesnt matter as we are all influenced somehow. I understand your feelings of wanting it to be seen as your own thing, but like I said, influences are influence whether it be my stuff, Iain A's stuff, Rick C's stuff etc etc.. thats what a bibliographys for :) Im sure your book will feature in other bibliographies later too!


    How long did you train with him? How many instructor levels are there? What did you have to do to achieve that? Is your next book cover gonna have you in camo combats? :) (last ones a joke btw, the rest Id like to know)



    Thanks for explanation.

    Stuart
     
  12. StuartA

    StuartA Guardian of real TKD :-)

    Thats an interesting snippet! Where did you get this information from? I ask as it doesnt make sense to me as Choi jung Hwa was born in 1955 I believe and at that point Gen Choi was promoting the tuls of Ch'ang Hon, so it would make sense his father was learning the tul, rather than the kata - lets say he started learning formerly at 4, by then it would be 1959! Also, considering his fathers position and the fact that his teachers (Han Cha Kyo and Kong Young Il I believe) were under the general, as well as being nvolved in the Ch'ang Hon formulation process, this makes more sense to me. That said, even if he did practice them, it would have been the same as a 4 year old doing them now (ie. more dance than depth if you see what I mean)


    As you`ll read when you finally get a copy of my book, I dont believe that patterns are the heart or corner stone of TKD, like many karate system do, I simply think they are one part of the whole thing. So whether you are or are not doing TKD isnt really dictated by what patterns you do IMO.

    Stuart
     
  13. StuartA

    StuartA Guardian of real TKD :-)

    Yeah! Group hug :)
     
  14. mattsylvester

    mattsylvester One proud daddy!

    Choi Jung Hwa told me directly. And he said that he didn't remember training before 7, so he was still doing them then. It's in one of the articles I posted.

     
  15. StuartA

    StuartA Guardian of real TKD :-)

    Thanks.. but what is it, as thats not what was said!! Matt said "For black belts, I'm hoping that they'll be grading for at least two at the same time, PTKD & JSM" - that is not the same as simply recognising them as well, or listing them on both your club lists a black belt etc.

    Stuart
     
  16. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    There's only one way to sort this...DOJO INVASION!!
     
  17. StuartA

    StuartA Guardian of real TKD :-)

    I see.. time will tell I guess. However, I would be cautious about that sort of thing. As part of PTA (linked previously) one of the instructors is a 5th degree in KKW, we do similar things, even down to traditional sparring types, but neither would promote the others students to warrent them saying "Im a Bb in Ch'ang hon and a BB in WTF" (for example) unless they could perform the patterns and other bits associated with the style, to a good standard. being similar isnt enough - all kick/punch systems can be seen as similar after all!


    Depends what you consider "learned"!



    Yeah.. and stop using my comments in your posts :woo: I keep reading bits Ive wrote and looking for a resonse that isnt there LOL. Sorry for taking you away from your paint btw :)

    I see it like this: I dont see "Practical TKD" as a style, the style of your base is Ch'ang Hon TKD. I see "Practical TKD" as your system of training your base style based on how you see it and that is based on RBSD, PP's and what you feel is beneficial. Its not a style per se, not in the standard sense anyway, well, at least not to me. How doothers see thist?

    Funnily enough i was going to use the JKD analogy as well. The difference is 1) Bruce Lee never called his system a style 2) His style, even when it turned into the physical (as opposed to remaining applied concepts) was mostly centre around his base style of WC /Jun Fan 3) Bruce Lee purposely renamed what he did because he saw it as different from the original style (WC)

    I know, in many ways its a good description of what you do, I guess Id just like a little more balance of the two, even though i know you dont see it that way yourself.

    As I said before, I dont have my own system per se, I simply have different ways of training Ch'ang hon TKD which i feel are better and more beneficial to my students, but its still Ch'ang hon TKD.

    Stuart
     
  18. mattsylvester

    mattsylvester One proud daddy!

    But you have added. Therefore it's your style of TKD.


    The TAGB is an organisation as well, but they have different syllabus, different approach as do you. They're all organisations and they're all styles.

    You've skimmed, I said that they were moving towards the martial and the spirit. He told me directly that his father concentrated on the physical techniques, and left it to him to concentrate on the spirit side of things. However feels that the sport element has gone too far away from the martial so they're addressing that as well.

    I've decided to go with Sajo through to Won Hyo. I did think about keeping Po Eun but thought if I was going to do a pattern like that I would actually have them learn Naihanchi since I consider that to be the best of the two.

    I found, that after Won Hyo the 'just because' moves really start to detract from the SD side of things, with the result that you get 'just because' or fluffy techniques. I made the original syllabus with techniques up to 2nd dan, however, it's not as technique-rich the further it goes up the belts. Which is good in one way as it would have forced people to find their own.


    There are three levels of instructor. Each course takes a week to do. The beauty of the system is that it is very basic, and very rigid on the techniques taught and subjects covered.

    The basic premise is that self-defence (as opposed to martial arts) should be a) VERY easy to learn b) very easy to teach.

    If you want more information contact Jim through www.jimwagnertraining.com
     
  19. paulol

    paulol Valued Member

    you really are making this much more complicated than it has to be.

    matt grades his students with my support as he is graded under me. he can also grade his students to black belt without me being at the grading. but he has asked that i also attend the black belt gradings and mark them. it is up to me if i award someone a dan grade in JMDK-TKD and matt's call on the PTKD aspect.
     
  20. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    Shouldn't we split this into a different thread with the aid of some Mods?

    I thought this thread was going to be an interesting discussion of Matt's book and his research for that, not a discussion of what Matt teaches to his students and how they are graded, and what Paul teaches etc.

    I think there is likely to be a difference between what is in Matt's book, and what he is researching at present, and what he is teaching at present. All are interesting - but the latter two should be seen as separate from the former. I would not discuss DART and the Heian Flow System at the same time for example - there are slight overlaps, but the two are very different.

    I think both topics would be better served by separation.
     

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