How can you feel Qi?

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Discussion' started by 47MartialMan, May 7, 2015.

  1. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Because they can afford better food and healthcare usually :)
     
  2. Giovanni

    Giovanni Well-Known Member Supporter

    define qi.
     
  3. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    Would one expect them to mention qi? They might not have ever heard of it but some similar resistance to cold is witnessed in some monks meditation practice

    http://news.harvard.edu/gazette/2002/04.18/09-tummo.html

    and control of the autonomic system was delved into in the Moyer's documentary I believe as well(haven't seen it in a while). So again, science has to catch up and that's nothing against the scientific method, just that our beliefs can often be changed by reality.
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2015
  4. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    Did you watch the video I linked?

    気 氣 other characters exist. You should ask a TCM doctor or research it yourself as the explanation required is long and detailed(and already went into pages ago).

    I will say that if you don't know what it is or isn't, you can't really debate it's characteristics or depths, you can just parrot that science hasn't been able to verify it as far as you know. I wouldn't waste my time waiting for science to do so if I was interested in learning more, I would investigate it myself. An uninformed skeptic is not a very interesting debater(not saying anyone here necessarily fits into this group mind you).
     
  5. Giovanni

    Giovanni Well-Known Member Supporter

    avoidance noted.

    no, i'm asking you, please reality, define qi. not give me characters. can you define it?

    i believe it was einstein that said if you can't explain something simply, you don't understand it.
     
  6. Giovanni

    Giovanni Well-Known Member Supporter

    i just want to call out this post. because ben is to many things here.

    really, what we're talking about is: define the behavior, observe, test, repeat. within that, is there a way to falsify? because the concept of falsifying is also critical, as is observation.
     
  7. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    Never claimed to. I do know more about it than people who have never read anything on qi or experienced it, but to claim to understand it would be a bit presumptuous. However, since you ask, I would think it could be easiest described in English as internal energy or bioenergy or something like that. Through training, you can pool this energy in certain areas, and move it around your body, and some can even send it into other's body's by touch(not sure about without touch). It can be manifest as heat, shock(perhaps, that could be the nervous system though), or a pulse like an electric current(I imagine). There are channels called meridians and points on the body where it is more likely to come to and these are the pressure and acupuncture points that are used in healing and fighting.

    Like I said before, if you are interested in learning more about qi, you should go talk to a TCM doctor or qigong master, they could describe it and demonstrate it better. All I have is my few experiences with acupuncture and some other things and what I have read. I've seen and experienced some amazing things but in the end, don't have the time or interest in qi to dedicate myself to any practice that could result in such abilities. I think to really master it you would have to start at a young age and practice daily without breaks. I am more interested in the physical martial skills found in the martial arts so never got deep into it. The manifestation of qi in martial arts is something that some people can show you, but they tend to be more low key in my experience, not the people who brag about skills and make a lot of noise.

    By the way, did you watch the Moyer's documentary?
     
  8. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    Qi has been defined, observed, tested, and repeated in China for centuries. Their traditional medical canon and martial arts have different ways of demonstrating and testing it as we all know. If you want to conduct research, that is the first place to go to do so. Americans at least, weren't really allowed access to China to even begin to consider doing so until recent decades, so there may be research that has been conducted in China by Chinese or other scientists that most people are unaware of.

    However, some things cannot necessarily be tested ethically. If there are points on the body that can cause damage or even potential dangerous consequences, how could one conduct an experiment or control when these points might be triggered? I don't think any acupuncturist would advise someone to go around randomly poking themselves to see what effects it had.

    Also, it is kind of odd to assume that the placebo effect can explain all or even the majority of TCM. One would also expect the patients and Chinese people to avoid such medicine like the plague if it did not work. As it is also found outside of China(Taiwan, Singapore, etc), these are also places where one could compare the results. The entire, let's wait and see what science says or "hey you guys prove it to me," attitude smacks of ignorance and cultural insensitivity. If you really want to learn about it, you go to where it is practiced and request to be allowed to see, experience, or research it. You don't say "You guys are charlatans, snake oil salesmen, witch doctors," etc while demanding they prove themselves to you.
     
  9. SWC Sifu Ben

    SWC Sifu Ben I am the law

    None of those under properly controlled conditions. Find me published, peer reviewed data from experiments which have been reproduced.

    You still don't understand Appeal to Common Practice do you?

    People used to do this...
    [​IMG]

    To gain favour with these...
    [​IMG]

    So that these would grow...
    [​IMG]

    And did so for like 1000 years. Just because many people do it or believe it does not make it true or right.



    No what smacks of ignorance is a complete lack of understanding of the scientific method; the foundation for gaining knowledge across the world. There is nothing culturally insensitive about people needing to provide evidence for a claim they have made.

    Burden of proof my friend. You make the claim, you provide the evidence to back it up.
    And stop acting like subject experience is evidence. It is not.

    Stop putting words in people's mouths. I have explained to your multiple times now what we are saying.

    a) If you make a claim you provide proof to back it up
    b) Subjective experience and appeals to common cause are not evidence
    c) The scientific method is the basis for gaining knowledge and is NOT culturally insensitive
    d) No scientifically oriented person denies the possibility of things, only the probability and will concede that they are wrong when provided with objective scientific evidence

    Sticking your fingers in your ears and shouting "la la la la la you have to try it yourself la la la la" is not an acceptable argument either.
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2015
  10. ap Oweyn

    ap Oweyn Ret. Supporter

    No, it doesn't. It's a cultural viewpoint prevalent in the West. If qi exponents want to be taken seriously in the West, then it's equally culturally ignorant not to recognize that THIS is what it takes to be taken seriously here. If qi practitioners are perfectly content keeping to themselves, then there's no issue.

    I agree that the accusations shouldn't come first. But skepticism absolutely should.
     
  11. Giovanni

    Giovanni Well-Known Member Supporter

    you realize bill moyers is a journalist, not a scientist, right?
     
  12. 47MartialMan

    47MartialMan Valued Member

    Journalists "tell the absolute truth"! :eek:
     
  13. Giovanni

    Giovanni Well-Known Member Supporter

    this is actually kind of interesting. i was just researching the placebo effect, but also got something about acupuncture, to use the placebo effect.

    here's the link...
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2814126/

    money quote....
    potent method of healing by means of placebo effect. even with "sham" instruments. whoa. ki/qi, indeed.

    the whole paper is actually quite interesting if you care to read it. won't take you an hour like the moyers "documentary" and it's written by a scientist, not a journalist. i'm definitely going to read it again only because i'm at work and there are questions that i have about it. but just thought to share.
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2015
  14. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    Let's see if I can be clearer.

    Do you have any experience with qi or have you researched it? If the answer to both questions is no, then you are clueless as to what it can or can't be. It is really that simple. You can believe whatever you like, but it is pointless to discuss qi if you don't know anything about it.
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2015
  15. 47MartialMan

    47MartialMan Valued Member

    I feel a numb sometimes tingling, sometimes warm feeling at certain points of my body, is this "Feeling Qi"?
     
  16. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    That wasn't my question, I asked if you watched it. He was not the only person featured in the documentary, he was the story teller.
     
  17. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    Nothing wrong with skepticism, or accusations when something is shown to be fraudulent. I didn't know this thread was about how TCM and/or qi could be taken seriously in the West, I thought it was about how one could feel qi. If that is the real question, then beyond experience what answer is there? I have nothing against the scientific method nor do I think any kind of tradition should get an automatic pass because it is a tradition. However, I also know it is easy to dismiss things different to one's own beliefs or feel one's beliefs are superior to others because they are our own. Claiming that qi doesn't exist or that TCM doesn't work is also a bit of a tall claim to make if one has never researched or investigated either for themselves or read any information from those who have. That's all I'm saying.
     
  18. Giovanni

    Giovanni Well-Known Member Supporter

    ok, well i put in on in the background and watched and listened while doing other tasks. here's my take of the various segments....

    no data in the hospital. a bunch of people believe in tcm and go to this hospital instead of or in conjunction with the "western" hospital. ok. nothing more than appeal to the masses.

    the tai chi part. ok, exercise is good for you. we know this.

    the artist. nothing of interest there. he channels his "chi" to draw calligraphy? whatever.

    the meditation or "using the mind to heal" section. no data whatsoever on the health outcomes of the "patients". only a bunch of people meditating.

    the master "throwing" his student. looked like a combination of some body alignment and strength and compliant martial art training. i've seen it and experienced it many times before. you know who doesn't get thrown like that? a judoka.

    the dude waiving his arms. again, no data on the health outcomes of the people being presided over. just some guy waiving his arms about.

    the most interesting part was at the end though, the discussion around generating statistics around the health outcomes of tcm and chi. which i'm all for.

    all-in-all, exactly what i thought going in: short on data, long on anecdotes and visuals for television consumption.

    did you read the article that i posted? notice how it's long on data and short on anecdotes? you can even follow the links to see more data. like this...

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2769056/

    the conclusion of the meta analysis of acupuncture trials for pain relief....

    notice the specificity (acupuncture for pain relief), the very precise methodology and explanation of the statistical analysis used in the paper, including charts, an examination of the issues brought up, all kinds of stuff.

    compare something like this paper to your own comments and to the moyers clip. i'm still waiting to hear some definition of ki. some parsimonious definition. but like all pseudo-science, completely wilts under the pressure of systemic testing. kind of like many of the martial arts i know.

    can i get my hour back?
     
  19. Giovanni

    Giovanni Well-Known Member Supporter

    also can i make a comment....

    please reality, please learn to use the quote function properly. people can't quote your replies because you're replying within other quotes. i don't think it's too much to ask to properly use the software.

    this is a request, i'm not a mod. but i know you've been called out on it before and it's highly annoying.
     
  20. SWC Sifu Ben

    SWC Sifu Ben I am the law

    You are perfectly clear but your reasoning is fallacious.

    Fallacy - ad hominem

    Taken from 3 pages ago...
    I am not making claims. The burden of proof is on the person who is.


    You make the claim, you have burden of proof.

    Allusion - reference to another author's work
    I was making a comparison to show you that just because many people believe in something does not make it right or true because you don't seem to understand Appeal to Common Practice.

    For the love of god READ it this time...
    And again burden of proof is on the one making the claim.

    You have repeatedly implied that qi exists. In fact you do so in the next sentence.

    I have experienced the pain relieving properties of ibuprofen. I can reference scholarly papers on its effects, the exact mechanisms responsible for its effects, and double blind studies showing its efficacy over placebo.

    Emphasis mine. And therein lies the problem. You again keep referring to subjective experience and Appeal to Common Practice as though they are equal with research data.

    And when multiple people can observe and reproduce the same results under controlled conditions we call that science.

    a) With enough time and research everything can be proven or disproven satisfactorily as we have seen in numerous fields.
    b) Personal experience is nonsense. It proves nothing.
    c) No, THE way. And yes there are cultural influences on research but the scientific method itself is independent of culture... and that's not even what we're arguing here.
    d) Yes we are wondering IF it works. Hence the call for empirical evidence to prove one way or the other.

    That implies that it exists. Prove that is does and then it can be objectively observed and researched.

    It's pointless to debate a thing when the person implying the things exists can provide no proof that it does.
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2015

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