How can you feel Qi?

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Discussion' started by 47MartialMan, May 7, 2015.

  1. qazaqwe

    qazaqwe Valued Member

    My logic is missing? You equate qi with telephones, planes and space travel, all things that are measurable, repeatable and able to be used by anyone in full view of witnesses with supporting data for anyone who wasn't there to witness it, if qi is like these things, stop repeating variations of "the absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence" and give me some data on qi, if you cannot provide said data on qi, your initial statement was made on false pretenses, which would hence mean, you were lying.
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2015
  2. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    Not sure you quite understood what I wrote. I was comparing qi now to what someone would've thought if they had been talking about telephones or airplanes before they were readily known to be true. If you wanted to talk to someone who wasn't there back during the Antebellum South for example, you would have had to go to church. If you said you were going to go home and call your friend in Arkansas and you weren't within yelling distance, you would have been thought insane.

    I said science would eventually catch up and be able to verify qi's existence, as many people already know, it exists. However, if you didn't know how to comprehend what it was, explaining something to you would not be possible. So, if you are ignorant of qi's existence or what current research into it already suggests, you can't become enlightened by someone putting the research in your hands.

    I don't make a habit of lying so if I said I experienced something, I am telling you the truth. You can believe or choose not to. I can't prove it to you because you weren't there, but you can't disprove it either because you were not there. If you are interested in figuring out how to feel qi, you have to go to a source that can send it. Otherwise you will never learn about feeling qi. If you want to understand how it is described, it is best to understand Chinese or Japanese(though there are obviously more sources available in the former) and actually read the available sources. But it is far easier to remain aloof and ignorant of it than to make that effort.
     
  3. philosoraptor

    philosoraptor carnivore in a top hat Supporter

    The problem with your analogy is that the underlying physics of these phenomena were well understood at the time. To find out when they were poorly understood, you've got to go back to the dark ages. Each time we place these qi magicians to the test, they come up lacking. We're left with the possibility of an invisible man who is only invisible when no one is watching.
     
  4. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    The physics of phones were understood by the masses before they were invented? You are convoluting the conversation. There is a difference between a TCM doctor and a guy claiming no touch knockouts or special powers.
     
  5. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    Here's the documentary I mentioned earlier:

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Vj1tgTqrPg"][PBS] The Mystery of Chi - Bill Moyers (Full-Length) - YouTube[/ame]
     
  6. qazaqwe

    qazaqwe Valued Member

    You directly compared things that were completely understood from the basis of their invention onward with qi, you claim qi already exists, it is no great leap to assume you implied it was both measured and replicated by those who utilize it.

    That is a fallacy, if research exists it is able to prove it can be utilized, if the research doesn't prove this it fails as research and is invalid to be called such.

    I am not interested in feeling qi, i am interested in measuring it, scientifically, which you assured me was possible, further more i counter your requirement of knowing either Chinese or Japanese, if qi is a natural phenomena, the language of instruction should be irrelevant.
     
  7. Late for dinner

    Late for dinner Valued Member


    I'm going to try and make 3 points here that are sort of in answer to your comments so please be patient.

    Often we think we know about things and have experienced what we are sure is correct/true. Case in point was ''the aether'' in western science. I remember the aether being referenced in text books. There were studies, proofs and testimonials that it was present and was obviously what was making radiation able to move through the universe. Until one day someone said I don't buy it. Within a couple of years the aether was disproved and you don't hear a mention of it in western science anymore.

    Now about China. I was there in 1986 and I tell you that the country was run by committee..no one would nay say someone else for fear that they would be put out into the fields to work or worse. There wasn't a clear cut philosophy of TCM that was unanimously supported. It was just that you would do/think how the party wanted you to think and that was that. Lots of places had no doctors so they had ''barefoot'' doctors who knew a bit of everything but not necessarily the why's of what did or didn't work. I remember seeing people given herbal meds or acupuncture and a strong western prescription med at the same time.. strong western med mixed in there so who know what was working? Many people outside of china dispute the direction of chinese medicine under the communists and there are many more schools of thought today with far more disagreement as to what is happening.

    So I'm at this conference and every doctor presenting says that their treatments fix the condition in question 100% of the time. Again no one says ''what?''. One needs to maintain one's tongue in order to get somewhere. Thinking about this I reflect when I am outside in central Beijing seeing people begging with deformities, others unable to walk/function and a complete lack of any form of rehabilitation within the system because ... everyone gets better!! I think that when Deng Sho Ping's son had a spinal cord injury that there was some move to try to have physiotherapy and related disciplines trained up in China. The head of my physio school in Canada went to the PRC to start up the first physiotherapy class in the early 1980's.

    So what am I saying? Well you can experience something and it will still be hooie! Just because there are a bunch of people in supposed agreement doesn't mean that they actually agree. Finally when you hear people telling you stuff look for evidence that it isn't all in your/their head... Examples of this, eg ki master gets knocked out, have already been offered.

    LFD
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2015
  8. philosoraptor

    philosoraptor carnivore in a top hat Supporter

    Yes, the physics behind electricity were well understood. The telephone took advantage of known physical processes and did not attempt to hide behind anything like "Well, we don't know how it works, science will just have to catch up." There might be a difference between a TCM doctor and a guy claiming no touch knockouts, but there is no statistical way of distinguishing a TCM doctor and a dude who stabs you in random places with needles. Or doesn't and just tells you he's doing it with his mind.
     
  9. 47MartialMan

    47MartialMan Valued Member

    But Qi is rooted in Chinese culture to keep the masses "in check with Chinese thought"

    Like homeopathy, naturopathic, herbalism, etc., based upon the belief that "modern medicine" has its failures, people of impoverished or dictatorship, do not have the luxury of choice or have information

    There is the Asian dogma that negative things should not be said of older/cultural

    Interestingly;

    National Center on Complementary and Alternative Medicine (NCCAM) has this to say on Qi Gong:

    https://nccih.nih.gov/research/results/spotlight/071910.htm
     
  10. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    You made some interesting points. Do you think things are the same in 2015 as they were in 1986? Neither Western nor TCM medicine is not infallible and we all have to die someday which means they both fail at some point. I would be interested in your take on the Bill Moyers documentary.

    I have had personal experience with qi, and belief in it was not an issue, as I had no idea what I was going to feel nor did I expect to necessarily feel anything in the first place. I wasn't convincing myself of anything. I'm fine with people not taking that on face value, they can believe whatever they want. If you want to discuss how one feels qi, then obviously the first task would be to define how one feels it and how it can be delivered. The next task would be actually going and experiencing it. Then testing and quantifying it. There is no knowing without doing.

    China isn't the only place where there are TCM doctors. Taiwan, Singapore, Japan, etc. are all viable places to conduct research. The issues you experienced are not necessarily found in these other countries, nor in the top hospitals in China today. If patients are being healed, then it exists and is either working for whatever ailed them or is make believe and an incredible placebo. That should be an answerable question, but if and only if someone is dedicated to doing the research and knowing how and what to quantify it.

    This is a very different from people who move things with their mind or throw people without touching them. Pressure points can be effective but I don't think they are some mysterious silver bullet. If you want to effectively discuss qi, you can't lump everything in together if you want nuanced conversation and debate.
     
  11. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    By the masses back before the Civil War? Not talking about hiding, if you look into TCM, they very specifically describe how it works. Science's job is to investigate the descriptions behind the theory and the actual practice of healing using TCM. How do you know there's no difference between a doctor doing acupuncture and someone randomly stabbing you with needles? Have you tried both? If so, you are braver and more gullible than some.
     
  12. philosoraptor

    philosoraptor carnivore in a top hat Supporter

    Are we talking about masses or the scientific community?

    If I tell you I have a snake oil potion that energizes the body using the body's natural energetic system, but that science has not yet reached the point where it can even understand how it works, then yes, it is in fact hiding.

    Because they have conducted multiple trials and metastudies on acupuncture - when a sham control is used, i.e. someone *****s the patient with a needle and tells them that it will make them better, the results are indistinguishable from 'true' acupuncturists. If the needles were interfering with qi and producing tangible results, why would this be?
     
  13. Giovanni

    Giovanni Well-Known Member Supporter

    seriously, you've got to come up with something better. this is the boilerplate answer when you've run out of responses to people, rightfully, questioning your comments.

    i mean that's great you "believe" that qi is there. or that ninjutsu works in reality. but you realize belief and reality are two different things, no?
     
  14. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    I believe I wrote by the masses. Just like the masses of Westerners who have no clue what qi is. It's fine to repeat what you heard(like repeating that science hasn't confirmed it), but they is never a good answer. Who conducted what research in what way?

    We aren't talking about snake oil, we are talking about an entire nation's traditional medical canon. It works so bad that they have the highest population in the world.

    If you talk to a TCM doctor, I'm sure they could describe to you how it works and why. It is bizarre to assume that their entire medical profession was filled with unethical liars.
     
  15. Kave

    Kave Lunatic

    By that logic the medical system in Sudan is better than the medical system in Norway.
     
  16. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    The population showing marked increase in longevity and growth since adoption of Western Medicine.....
     
  17. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    By that post you don't read sarcasm.
     
  18. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    This is kind of silly. You took one comment out of context. However, the crux of the issue is the OP, how to define and how can one experience(feel) qi. No amount of pontification by people who have zero experience or knowledge of how it is currently explained will allow anyone to get any closer to that goal. If your goal is to feel superior in your belief that it doesn't exist and science has shown that it is either quackery or a placebo, then that is fine. You will remain ignorant of what qi is and how it is felt. Belief is belief, reality is different. So until you have actually experienced it yourself, all you can do is believe what someone told you somebody researched or claimed, but in the end that is still dry land swimming.

    I haven't run out of anything. People wishing to understand qi have to put forth the effort to do so. Without that there can be no understanding. This discussion has nothing to do with ninjutsu, but just like with ninjutsu, until you have experienced the real thing, you are just one of a group like the young group of guys bragging about their prowess with girls even though they've never even had their first kiss.
     
  19. Tom bayley

    Tom bayley Valued Member

    Yes. But it is most likely due to the shift from old communist economic model to a socialist market economic model which occurred during the same time. On a large scale the biggest factors contributing to health and longevity are the average wealth of individuals and the quality of civil engineering.
     
  20. Tom bayley

    Tom bayley Valued Member

    Some interesting stuff. Although at no point does anyone mention chi.

    this video is a few years old

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nRsNh0eB-Io"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nRsNh0eB-Io[/ame]


    This paper is recent

    http://www.pnas.org/content/111/20/7379.abstract
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2015

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