How can you feel Qi?

Because when someone makes claims for something whose very existance the overwhelming majority of people find to be completely unbelievable, it's inevitable that the people are going to ask for some kind of evidence that it exists.

If I claimed that the earth really is flat then I would expect that sort of sceptical reaction, rather than people just saying "Hey, what an interesting idea! Let's discuss it!"

 

In my early 20's, I belonged to a entertainment org to earn extra income. Among this group, were sub-groups of entertainers. There was a Magician's Guild. I was invited to study with them (although I did not start with the Entertainment Org as a Magician).

Being a martial artists before I met them, I started to bring to their attention about martial art demos. Almost needless to say, the magicians were reproducing all of the demos

 

The "definition" is essentially the same as I've described in my previous posts, so I guess the answer to your first question is Qi is defined as "氣". The second answer is both, there are standing, seated, static, and dynamic exercises that all involve breathing. In addition the Shaolin Chan meditation exercises are part of Hung gar, as well as a number of Daoist breathing exercises. Much of these exercises are combined in sets that don't require a lot of "definition" or verbal explanation, since they are physical in nature, the point is to do them, as opposed to discuss or explain them (aside from structural corrections and so forth). At sifu level I supposed more discussion takes place. I am nowhere near that level of training, but much of the qi gong is taught early on, with the later qi gong exercises like the Iron Wire taught to advanced level students. There are many videos online of Iron Wire training, so it's not really a "secret".

As far as what it can do and how it works, it's exercise. It builds strength, improves lung function, reduces stress, and encourages health. There are now a good number of controlled medical studies that support those claims, making qi gong essentially like yoga as far as exercise benefits are concerned. In the case of martial qi gong, though, the conditioning and applications are targeted at martial arts applications, so much of it is geared to strengthening legs, shoulders, forearms, the pelvic area, back, but also mental aspects. It helps focus and coordination.

 

To often skepticism is actually just a fig leaf for prejudice or ego.

Dictating how people discuss / learn / think about subjects frequently creates barriers to sharing of knowledge, serves to reinforce prejudice and reinforces barriers to social inclusion.

 

Post removed.

You've been warned out cross posting.

 

True, but if your going to confirm or deny whether it was Qi, you have to first define what Qi is, and both parties have to agree on the definitions. Otherwise you run into the issue of misrepresentation and straw man arguments. Based on what I have seen over the years, I define Qi as the energy expressed from your biochemistry. I know that not everyone agrees with this definition, but it makes the most sense based on what I have seen with myself and others.

 

Not the same exactly but it would be easy to replicate if people believed qi to be a thing as opposed to just a way of describing biomechanics and the such.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emily_Rosa

Elegant study from a 9 year old.

LFD

 

Ok, for a general response;

What Qi Is Not:

It Is Not- A Mysterious Force or Magical Power

It Is Not- The Absolute Description of Well-Being

It Is Not- Proven With Science by Empirical Evidence


What Qi Is:

It Is - Another Manner to Describe Breathing.

It Is - An explanation for biological phenomenon the Chinese did not have the science to explain.

It Is - Habitually Associated with Good Health and Exercise

The Feeling of Qi
Just because seeing and feeling something does not make any/all explanations for it real. Somewhat like some kid feeling the wind and thinking it was God pushing them. When something is felt; a pulse, breathing, other bodily sense, there should not be a reference to it via metaphysical explanations. If the body "can feel" via senses, its functions, then a description of Qi could be explained from those bodily senses and functions

Practically
Qi = air (it's one of the definitions of the character)
Qigong = breath and body coordination

Does anyone want to add or desire to make changes?

 

I think that The Iron Fist gave the best explanation of qi back in post 14 of this thread. The best summary you can give would just be a link back to that post.

 

Well the problem with all things is that defining something in a certain way doesn't mean that that is what it is.. for example here are some descriptions of 'chi' :

'' There are many different types of chi, and all must be understood to understand the whole. I have listed the different types of Chi below with a brief layman's explanation of each.

Yuan Chi - The original or "Before Heaven" chi, this is the chi that is immediately inherited at the time of conception. Nothing you do can change this type of chi.
Gu Chi - This is "After Heaven" chi and is derived from food. It is the chi of the spleen.
Kong Chi - This also is "After Heaven" chi but it is derived from air and is the chi of the Lung.
Zong Chi (Chi of the chest) - The gathering of both the Gu Chi and the Kong Chi.
Zheng Chi - This is "normal" chi, it is the product of the Zong Chi being catalyzed by the Yuan Chi.
Ying Chi - The nutritive Zheng Chi that nourishes the organs and tissue.
Wei Chi - The defensive Zheng Chi that circulates on the surface of the body and protects it from external factors.
Zangfu Zhi Chi - This is the Zheng Chi that flows through the organs.
Jing Luo Zhi Chi - This is the Zheng Chi that flows through the meridians.''

''Man depends on nature for his production and growth and must observe the common laws of the world. As everything in the world comes from the interaction of Heaven Qi and Earth Qi, man must breathe to absorb Heaven Qi and eat to absorb Earth Qi. The food Essence transformed and transported by the Spleen must be sent up to the Lung to combine with fresh air to produce the nutrients necessary for man's life activities.

Qi of the human body also has two patterns of existence. The coagulated Qi is manifested as various visible or structural components of the body, such as viscera, body figure, sense organs, Blood, Body Fluids and Essence; the diffused Qi is manifested as the Qi that flows in the body, but takes no certain form, such as Nutritive Qi, Defensive Qi, Primordial Qi and Pectoral Qi.''

It's not uncommon for people to simplify things to make them more understandable but as you can see from the above list qi is a complex phenomenon according to chinese philosophy and not something as simple as ''breath'' or ''air''.

I'm ok with the idea of how chi can be related to how energy/biomechanics are expressed e.g. in internal martial arts but I don't think that the definitions used by martial artists capture the essence of what chi is supposed to be.

LFD

 

For the novice, such as my cohort, I was looking for a "less detailed, more layman's".

Thanks- but again, allow me to reiterate:
For the novice, such as my cohort, I was looking for a "less detailed, more layman's".

Often I find people who read something complex, or too far beyond their understanding (not stating a lack of intelligence),that they will create their own interpretations (Heck, it happens on forums.) I would think, for the novice/laymen, that a brief description of what Qi "is" and "is not", should be limited in details

 

If it cannot be described accurately or consistently WITH details then there is no chance with a dumbed down version!!

Tell her it is pretty much just bio-tensegrity; the body perfectly aligning itself

 

If you want a straightforward 'definition of Qi for the martial artist', then I think that Hannibal's is spot-on.

Or to put it a slightly different way: it's when your body is acting in the most efficient way possible.

 

Ok, let me take another stab at getting my point across.

She , the person you are discussing things with, says that she can identify chi according to a set of symptoms etc that she relates to in alt medical terms. You are asking people to define qi in a MA way in order to? show her that it's not what she thinks? Or perhaps it is also what you think?

When you put a needle into a person the person can get a sensation of ''take'' which is call ''de chi(sp)''. This is felt as an ache, heaviness along the course of the nerve (most acupuncture points are located near the neuro-vascular hilus of the muscle that is innervated). It is also possible to produce a ''shock'' or twitch when the nerve fires. So, if this sensation is what she see's as chi then it is possibly measured using nerve conduction studies or related electro-diagnostic procedures.

If you instead see chi as efficiency or breath then it might become much more difficult to quantify what you are looking at and thus it might be hard to measure ''chi''. It is also a completely different process than what she is looking at.

In a sense you are both right and both wrong. Neither answer is complete or correct.

We do know of the limited evidence found through research so far. To be honest that only proves that a limited number of research studies have not been successful in establishing that anything , beyond the placebo effect, occurs in medical testing of chinese medicine. On the other hand , research does not prove a negative but rather shows that the null hypothesis is more likely to be true with respect to the studies carried out to date.

So you can come up with a definition that will identify what you think but I am not sure it is completely fair to your ''cohort''. I listed different types of chi just to remind that there isn't just ''one'' type of chi and that we all must agree what and where it is.

I hope that makes sense. I am not trying to be pedantic, just trying to say why the need for only one to be correct and why can't both experiences be valid? :' )

LFD

 

No offence to your friend , but if she beleives in homeopathy her mind is TOO open, I.E so open her brain is in danger of falling out.

Homeopathy and indeed many alt therapy options, and indeed many ki / qi based teaching have no more effect than a simlilarly administerd placebo.

A good example was a study i read when i was with the SPR ( society for psychic reasearch) in london. That two patients underwent Acupuncture therapy, one had the needles placed at the points assosiated with qi flow on the ancient body meridians, and the other had needles placed completely at random. Both subjects reported improvement and effect ( i.e feeling within their body).

 

Which shows how nothing works better than a good placebo.

 

"You can lead a horse to water......"

Although, the internet is a large vessel of information;

Not to cause offense, I had taken the liberty and collected some posts, (with the author's name-quote) and created some pages for her to read as well as a link to this thread.

The internet is full of point-counter point, but I thought the forum and this thread, will shed some better understanding

 

Have her read this, acupuncture is based around the existance of Qi and disrupting its flow, here is an analysis of the studies done.

http://www.dcscience.net/2013/05/30/acupuncture-is-a-theatrical-placebo-the-end-of-a-myth/

If you dont want to read all that here is a quote from the end summary that will answer the question.

"The best controlled studies show a clear pattern – with acupuncture the outcome does not depend on needle location or even needle insertion. Since these variables are what define "acupuncture" the only sensible conclusion is that acupuncture does not work."

So if qi was real, putting the needles in the wrong place should have had either no effect of a bad effect. This is not the case. So therefore.... well you can draw your own conclusions.