How can you feel Qi?

I feel numbness, last I checked thats because of nerve problems

I have trained with kung fu and tai chi guys who talk of Qi and liken it to electricity or heat as opposed to numbness.

I always felt Qi explanations I have been told and read correlated to the lymphatic system, nerve endings and the dan tien being in line with most peoples centre of balance was basically just mystified theory on biological aspects of our body

 

not strong words, perfectly reasonable.

you're the one making claims with zero evidence.

and who's talking about leprechauns? me or you?

 

Mate, I have been to China, I have seen and experienced Qigong and I am involved in practices where people attribute things to 'chi' and I'm still not convinced. Yes I can see some alternative treatments where there are ''effects'' but I don't think they require a belief in chi. Disagreeing doesn't make one have a closed mind. Your argument just isn't valid.

LFD

 

Why is it a lie? Isn't it just a really simple truth? Exercise + time = win. That's qi, and kung fu in a nutshell. What more words do ya'll need?

 

So qi is no more than "guts" "heart" or "balls" then? Because if it is simply proper reps done over time the term is even LESS useful

 

I tried qigong too, felt more relaxed and some sensation in my fingers, but that's about it. The guy who did the emitting had been training since he was a kid everyday for 50 years or more. I know martial artists like that too, and I know I'll never be able to do the things they can either. Okay, so you went to China. Did you meet any qigong masters who claimed they could send their qi into someone else through touch? Did you ask them to demonstrate that on you?

Without that, going to China has nothing to do with it. It's like going to Tokyo and only eating 100 yen sushi that revolves on a track in front of you. Doesn't mean you've had real sushi(okay, it is real but it's not the real deal).

Disagreeing is fine. However, the only way to know that you're disagreement is valid is to test it. It's kind of like crystal healing. Never thought much about it, but I do know they used crystals in record players because due to piezoelectricity. So, if that makes sense from a scientific perspective, why wouldn't someone be able to think of other ways to use crystals energetically? That isn't a reason to automatically go out and buy crystals to try to heal a headache(Tylenol works fine for me), but does mean that I shouldn't automatically paint it with the same brush as walking manatees, Alien Tinder, and vampire knitting circles.

In the end, I'm not sure how big a deal this ability is. Sure it's pretty amazing, but so are a lot of other things. Sure I can see the potential medical/applications, but again at what cost? Being able to create heat in the hand through qi is cool, but we have gloves, lighters, friction, and other things that do the trick.

 

No true qi master would put sugar on his porridge

That's because it is the explanation that requires the least prior knowledge.

Which takes me back to phlogiston theory ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phlogiston_theory ) - this is an area whereby Occam's Razor can appear to make stubble grow when you shave with it, because without sufficient knowledge, magic is the simplest explanation (because it is not really an explanation at all).

Let's take the example of setting fire to paper with your hands: without knowledge of the chemical reaction caused when you mix potassium permanganate and glycerine, qi will appear like quite an easy "explanation" to accept - because it does not actually give any model by which the phenomena may be explained. It's the equivalent of saying "God moves in mysterious ways"; it is an ad hoc rationalisation: http://atheism.about.com/library/FAQs/skepticism/blfaq_fall_adhoc.htm

Phlogiston theory is actually a step above qi, as it contains a mechanistic model that can be tested, and that model took some years of testing to be proved false.

If qi is feelings and metaphor, then there is no argument. If someone wants to call the feeling of hitting your funny bone "Geoff", then who are we to argue? It is of no consequence.

However, if qi is some kind of energy that will rewrite the standard model of particle physics once Western science realises it exists, then first there must be a hypothetical model from which we may derive experiments to falsify said model.

If you were to go back 3000 years and explain the Standard Cosmological Model to the greatest Egyptian minds of the day, they would have no reason to believe that model over Atum creating the universe from his semen. This is because they would not have the experimental data to support the theory.

Magic of all stripes relies on a person's ignorance to appear as a viable model.

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."
- Arthur C. Clarke

Clarke's third law does not have to be about spaceships and hover boots. It applies equally to Penn & Teller, and as much to sleight-of-hand and misdirection as knowledge of chemical reactions. We tend to think of technology as being about machinery or chemical synthesis, but techniques are just as important a part of technology.

The other sticking point is how such things can work when no-one is trying to con anyone. We are just as able to deceive ourselves as anyone else.

 

1 bottle of Bio-pixie plasma Qi please

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JO8edOh2Dyc"]Snake Oil Salesman - "Science!" - YouTube[/ame]

 

Brother you are on a roll with this idea. Look at the first thing you said: "can't agree on"! This certainly sounds like a modern problem, with modern philosophical dilemmas tacked on unnecessarily. Since when did gung fu ever require explanations of body mechanics "as explained in detail". Gung gu styles are taught "hands on", lengthy discussions on qi nature come from a completely different time and place.

 

Saying "it just is", is equally unhelpful.

Also, you said that disagreement about the nature of qi is as old as records of qi. So in what way is it a modern problem?

 

I'm not sure where you think I implied "est quod est", brother, but that wasn't it. "Qi is simpler" is what I've said. You are complicating things by adding a lot of words in your own language on top of something that can be taught more or less without them. You can teach someone to ride a bike without words! No physics or bio mechanics, you just put their feet on the peddles and push. If your teacher is good, your body learns to figure it out and you will never forget.

There was not a disagreement about the nature of qi for many centuries simply due to the simplicity of the concept. Qi development was taught hand to hand, intimately, with precious little discussion, in forums that valued simplicity and harmony. The proof was in the training, not the words. For the word and it's etymology, there has been a linguistic development that mirrors much of the languages growth, combining both agrarian v nomadic tribal concepts as well as medicinal, religious elements. "Disagreement" here is akin to disagreement over what dialect is correct...both are "correct" but developmentally different for various reason.

This same thing affects discussions of qi: most of what's being discussed is unnecessary discussion in English over holistic concepts transmitted in simpler terms in Chinese without the need for complex explanations (and where they exist they invariably come from sources not associated with actual "qi gong"). Conflating the term itself with the ~3000+ year history of the terms use is part of the problem, we are mixing scientific, philosophy, language, and even poetic issues into a big melting pot. That, man, is what's truly unhelpful.

 

Gopi Krishna - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gopi_Krishna_(yogi)

Trouble is, how would you distinguish his experiences from those of someone suffering from severe anxiety attacks and delusional states of mind?

As someone who has put in the hours on Kundalini and Kan and Li work, I can tell you that the only difference is what you take from the experience.

It is about perception, not spiritual energies.

Here's a group inspired by one of your own, and their attempts to create a model that explains the phenomenon of Kundalini awakening: http://www.kundaliniawakeningprocess.com/blog/what-is-kundalini/
This kind of explanation is a step above "if you find the right person in the right place, you will know that this energy exists", because they are at least providing a model that can be tested, and also they give instruction on how to recreate the effects yourself.

 

Sorry man, your message is becoming a bit too opaque and vague for me to get a grip on your point.

 

Ok I was a delegate at the 1st World Congress of Medical Acupuncture and Natural Medicine in Beijing in 1987. I was involved with interacting with various types of practitioners including Qigong masters and I also visited a TCM college as I was delivering things from a Dr in Canada back to friends of his at the college. People were eager to show their skills and I don't doubt that they believed that they were doing what they thought they were doing. Nice people, great experience. Did any of it show me that Qi was any more real? Experiencing the thing in the place of it's origin with people who were proficient didn't really make a huge impact on me. As I said before, every PRC person at the conference said that their stuff worked 100% of the time. Evidence on the streets of the city showed that this wasn't the case no matter what local research papers said. Interestingly one presenter from New York City, Dr M Smith (If my memory is correct) produced a treatment protocol for alcoholic recidivists that was superior to anything that had been produced by the pharmaceutical industry. It worked so well that the Govenor of NY state changed the laws to allow medical techs to use acupuncture needles. Results like this kept me interested even when I thought a good proportion of the theories weren't viable.

I would suggest that I am one of a small group of people that have been in this position - trained in both TCM and western medical principles, exposed to Chinese martial arts as well as western sporting arts and I have been to China/HK and other places interacting with people both oriental/occidental and negro who work/train in this field. I know what I experienced doesn't really matter to you and that's ok . I am not here to convert you. We all come away from out experiences with our own judgements of the experiences.

I do agree with you, if it takes years to achieve something that can be done simply with other methods , for the most part why do it? That's one of the big reasons that guns made a lot of MA training superfluous to the modern warrior.

:' D

FWIW

LFD

 

Qi isn't magic.

Magic is a much more convoluted and odd explanation for what I experienced.

The difference isn't just in the state of mind, the difference is in what is actually occurring in the body. Hard to go inside and find out but there it is. Same with qigong. If a guy is trying to trick people, he will use tricks. If a person can actually control their qi, it isn't. Would the person who can do so be as scrupulous to use tricks in the guise of real qi mastery? Don't know, but therein lies the quandary. You cannot automatically assume everyone is a liar or making things up to fit in with their wishes and dreams, just as you can't buy into every claim of ability. So how do you find the real master? That has always been the journey in the martial arts, and many other aspects of life.

It is probably healthy to not make much of one's experiences but there is no more good in doubting them than there is in conflating them. Reality is reality. Fools and fakers will fall by the wayside eventually(we'd like to hope), but who knows? All I can talk about is my experience, I have seen people using physics and leverage to demonstrate their qi, but know their tricks. This was something else entirely.

 

Never said your experiences or knowledge weren't impressive or irrelevant. This is the first I've heard of such anyway so why would I have assumed either way? The question always gets back to have you felt qi for yourself? You probably have read and researched more of the theoretical side than others, so the question gets back to do you believe it exists from your research, and have you ever felt it? In my short time doing qigong, there was nothing near what I felt with acupuncture. The feelings I had with acupuncture(except for some shocks), were nowhere near the intensity of what I felt from the man's hand touching me.

So have you ever felt that kind of strong sense of energy/electricity/bioelectricity/or whatever you want to call it(since qi is harder to describe but easier since it's one word) in any of your time involved?

Things don't work all the time in life, so anyone claiming that whatever they do always works either have limited experience or are over impressed with themselves. However, that doesn't make the case for qi not having an effect just because it doesn't always have the desired one or claimed one. The question is does it have an effect? From my experience, the answer is yes.

Like I said though, having that experience didn't really change much for me. I still go to the doctor(Western) when things are bothering me, and have only had acupuncture for minor muscular issues.

 

hilariously, this popped into my kids' netflix feed. we decided to watch it. bad lego animals are out to steal the good lego animals' "chi". funny stuff.

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxo4wULffKY&list=PLeRQOm8msfPkjhNz3xpUYfO3M9dhXwk6N"]LEGO® Chima™ - S01 E01 - The Fight Begins - YouTube[/ame]

 

So, if Qi is to be relative to breathing, we can feel when we breathe. But us this the quasi-energy that many Qi followers believe?

 

I hiked about 5 miles today with 70 lbs on my shoulders, and my chi is absolutely glowing right now brothers I'm sorry that I muddled the conversation, but let's just agree on this? Chi is proven when doing, not talking about it or looking for it under a microscope. You can use chi to do work or even play, but when only talking, it's just lost with the breeze.

 

Qi, chi...whatever might be the life force that connects everything, try to measure it...good luck.