So, just to clarify things in my head as I see them ... Mr. Glimme watched some vids on the internet, and then tried his best to copy them so he could sell it as "Musashi's sword art"? Very nice! I wonder if any of his deluded students have an inkling that what they're learning is garbage? Surely some of them have to have noticed! Ah well, let the gullible beware. Unfortunately, it is circumstances like this which have caused me to adopt the creed of avoiding anything related to any of the "soke" crowd. Way too many of the people involved therein seem to be grasping for money, or ego gratification, at the expense of their students. Pretty sad really!
This whole sorry saga is a good illustration of how koryu videos are -- excuse the pun -- a double-edged sword. On the one hand, the Nihon Kobudo series as well as all the other embu that you can find on youtube are a real blessing to the genuinely interested person who has not got the opportunity to go to Japan. They are also very useful for people who want to be sure what they are doing is a real Japanese art and not some made-up western style. But on the other hand, these videos provide rich fields for frauds to steal from. With so many kata being demonstrated, the fakes can now pass off what they do as a genuine system much more easily. The fact that they are performing it really really poorly still won't prevent at least a few students from being taken in.
Tsk, Tsk, Scott. That's some very judicious editing of Ed's email so you could twist it to reflect what you are trying to "prove". I can see why the Kyoshi doesn't want to dirty his hands here if you are going to use tactics like that. Jen.
Would you like to enlighten us as to what the actual context in the email was then? I think it's pretty hard to justify the 'internet' part in any case.
You need to look in the mirror there, concerning twisting things about, Jen. Why won't you answer any questions over at e-budo? You are a member. Aren't you the same person who said, very recently, that you knew absolutely nothing about what Mr. Glimme was doing with respect to the sword arts and couldn't answer any questions about it? You advised us to ask Mr.Glimme. Mr.Halls did and he recieved a reply. Funny how you now claim to know about the origins of the sword arts in Hoshin all of a sudden isn't it? Also, you haven't proved ANY of Mr.Halls' points wrong yet. Sorry, but saying "You're wrong!" just doesn't cut it. Care to explain? Or is this the same silliness that you got blasted for over on this thread?
Hi, Kogusoku, Devoken, I know a lot more now because I've been discussing it with various other people within Hoshin, Ed-Kiyoshi included. I was tsking at Scott for failing to even mention Ed's years with Katori and knowledge therof, etc. and making out that Ed's research was based pureley on Doctor Morris's teaching and internet resources. It's not, it goes a lot wider. (the internet is still a valid research tool if used properly). I'm not going to dignify this list with Ed's specific replies- he's watching MAP and Ebudo and if he wants to post he will do. As Scott said, it's up to Ed. Anyone with a resonable knowledge base in one art can look at a similar art being performed and use their knowledge base to interpret techniques. Don't tell me no one on this list has not at any time seen something from another art and gone, "hey, that's cool, wonder if I can do that, it's similar to x that we do in y art". then you go out onto the mats and play to get it to work. It's not the same technique any more, because you put the spin of Y art into it. I know full well everyone has done it at some time, it's the nature of martial artists to seek new information. In this way, our arts grow and change, not being mereley recitations of musty scrolls, (as, sadly many sword arts have become, although their uses as internal training tools are unquestioned). Back in the "good old days" the test of how good you were at assimilating new techniques, was whether your head stayed on your shoulders. In some ways, the sword arts are less now for not having the acid test, where empty hand and other weapons are still practically useable and continue to activeley develop. But I digress..... I see no reason to post on ebudo as well as here. It's clear there is a big issue of densho which Hoshin has been told one thing on and HNIR have a different, irreconcilable view on, which is up to the guys at the tops of our ryus to sort out, not lesser lifeforms like ourselves. All that does is foster idle specualtion, gossip, supposition and feed the rumourmill. "I'd rather be in the dojo." Oh, and I'm not out to prove anyone "right" or "wrong". The head of Hoshin has publicly made it clear he supports what Ed-san has done, here, so it is not for me to need to "prove" anything to you guys. Jen.
Katori Shinto-ryu? Wrong. And it's particularly wrong when it comes to koryu arts. There are a handful of licensed koryu teachers on this forum (I am not one of them) and they will probably all tell you that this is a mistake, and a dangerous one, when it comes to classical Japanese arts. The koryu arts that are still around are all very different animals, with completely different outlooks and ways of training. Even legitimate experts in one koryu will admit that they find it hard to understand -- let alone try to perform-- what they see another koryu doing. Read Challenges in Observing the Koryu Bugei by Ron Beaubien and Promise or Peril by Dave Lowry or Koryu Meets the West by Ellis Amdur for a proper discussion of this issue. People who do this with koryu arts are at best doing superficial movements and waving swords while deluding themselves that they understand what's going on. And at worst they are Martial Arts Pirates. Why is it always the schools with dodgy lineages that always bring up the "musty scrolls" or "museum pieces" argument? And why do they also invariably bring up the combat effectiveness argument, which is 99% of the time a straw man? There are no "guys at the top of our ryus" when it comes to koryu. There is one pyramid with one guy at the top, called the soke or iemoto. And a good indicator is that s/he will be Japanese.
Five years in Koryu is a blink of an eye Jen. Doesn't mean diddly. That and the fact that the line of Katori that he learned was less than legitimate himself: Sugawara san reached Kyoshi level in Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto-ryu. He was told not to come back after he was found out to be running a katori dojo without permission. He was asked to cease and desist, yet refused and that was him, out of the ryuha. Mr.Glimme in the US then "bigged" himself up by holding unauthorised seminars and printing flyers listing himself as one of the seniors of TSKSR and as "One of the best swordsman in America!" His betters in the Sugawara dojo gave him a stern telling off and requested that he retract such claims, since it just wasn't true. I wonder why Mr.Glimme left and joined Hoshin so quickly........... Sorry, that particular particle of feces just doesn't fly in Koryu bujutsu. Do I have to do a Dave Weidman on you too? :bang: Kindly do not comment upon what you do NOT know. Yeah, you see no reason to answer the questions posed nor prove said arguments wrong neither. Tai sabaki on the internet doesn't work as well as it does in the dojo Jen. Especially when it concerns malpractice of your so-called betters.
Notice I said "interpret" techniques, not "reproduce accurateley all ura and omote of said technique". That would be a ridiculous proposition, I agree. Actually, my comments about testing a school's effectiveness are based on 20 years of european historical re-enactment in both mediaeval and renaissance societies, which means individiual or mass battle outside, in anything from 35C heat to snow and mud. (don't knock it til you try it) It puts a whole different perspective on how you do those pretty techniques and fancy footwork which works so well in the dojo. If you do do practical application of that nature, then tell me and I'll revise my assumption about how Koryu are taught these days. Sure, Kogusoku, if you want to physically threaten me or make inappropriate advances like Mr. Wiedman did, be my guest, just do me a favour and do it to my face. Can't wait. Happy training, :Angel: Jen.
Consider revising then. No, reread what I wrote. It's about you dodging direct questions and avoiding the fact that you have a bunch of people here who know what they are talking about, some of them have been to Japan (Including myself - Lived there for 8 1/2 years) have trained in koryu and are saying that basically your teacher is rather spurious. That's basically it in a nutshell. Sorry if it came off as a physical threat, it wasn't intended to be so.
Jen, I really don't think anyone is trying to threaten you or means you any harm. In fact I think people are trying to be helpful. Like I mentioned earlier, there is a tiny handful of people here that are licensed in koryu and their advice is worth listening to. Have a look at this article, as it is extremely relevant to this discussion: http://www.koryu.com/library/kfriday1.html
Yeah, I twisted the below statement (cut-and-pasted from his email): - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 1) Where did you obtain the knowledge of the techniques that you have shown in the DVDs? Dr. Morris and Internet. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - There you go. Oh, any time spent in TSKSR counts for nothing when talking about practicing HNIR and viceversa, so I don't see how that is relevant. Firsty, Mr Glimme claimed to have made the techniques up after studying Musashi and his work. Then I call him out as I know all the techniques he has 'created' (weird, eh?) and then it turns out he has got the stuff second- or third-hand and is selling DVDs of techniques that actually are intellectual property of HNIR and the current soke. The only way to learn Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu is through the ryu. End of. Now, can you tell me what you have to gain in this argument? Are you arguing to defend Mr Glimme or just trying to not lose face...?
Jen, this is sarcasm and not an admission. That is a cutting and pasting of the e-mail he recieved. Nothing like contruing me saying "your internet taisabaki isn't good" as a physical threat. At this time, I am thinking both.
So in summary what we have here is a DVD series being sold as containing Musashi’s sword techniques by someone who has no experience in HNIR and has admitted getting the information either from the net or another source that has no connection to HNIR. Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu being the school Musashi founded and the one containing his “sword techniques”. The clip that is available for download is recognised by experienced HNIR practioners as being a very bad attempt at HNIR kata, which to me would back up the admission that one of the “research” tools used was the net. Is this correct?
Just to throw a spanner in the works....... Where did Musashi get his techniques, and did the people he learned from claim intelectual copyright or were they too busy being dead? I'm just interested, NOT that I am condoning fraud or anything like it, a straight (bad) copy is just that... a copy, but can anyone learn many different styles and forge them into their own ryu or is that not for us mortals.
That's it though, if it was: "This curriculum has been developed from my experience studying x,y and z schools and through studying the written works of X" Then it wouldn't be a problem, not IMO anyway (putting aside effectiveness and just dealing with legitimacy), but that's not the case here. The site is misleading. It specifically states that the DVDs cover the techniques of Musashi and refers to Musashi as Hoshins mentor. All of this gives the impression that they are providing Kenjutsu as developed by Musashi. This is further compounded by the downloadable clip having been identified as poorly done HNIR kata. So going on that it’s not even Kata that has just been developed by the individual concerned but based on the principles found in Musashi’s writings, it has been copied from HNIR.
I absolutely agree with this statement. It seems to me that Mr. Glimme has copied (poorly) something he saw, and is selling it as something that he created. This sounds like a fraudulent misrepresentation of the "art" that he's selling to his unsuspecting students. Legal or illegal has nothing to do with it really. It is really about integrity, both personal and through association. If the integrity of the gentleman in question is so poor that he would fraudulently misrepresent what he's teaching, what does this say about the association of which he is a highly placed member? Especially when said association declares that they back him fully? While I'm sure that there are a large number of really good people practicing and teaching within that organization, they can't help being painted with the same brush. Everyone involved from top to bottom has to decide for themselves ... do you press for dissassociation from the gentleman that is dragging the organization's name through the mud, or do you turn a blind eye to the way everyone will now see you and continue on as before? Tough decision, especially for those that have invested a lot of time in the organization. I have seen such things play out before, and it resulted in a lot of seriously dissillusioned people that felt betrayed by the very organization to which they had devoted a good part of their lives. Pretty sad all the way around. The best thing, in my opinion, would be for Mr. Glimme to issue a public apology to the students he misled, and make a new beginning. I seriously doubt that will happen though. Once someone has reached the point that they need deceit to feed their ego, there is very seldom any backing up. Just my thoughts from the outside.
