Hoshin Ryu Sword Curriculum and Niten Ichi Ryu

Discussion in 'Weapons' started by ScottUK, Nov 26, 2006.

  1. ScottUK

    ScottUK More human than human...

    Hiya Jen,

    I have a few questions about Hoshin - should I ask them openly on here or would you I prefer I open a new thread? After all, it IS the Yorks' thread... :)

    Thanks in advance...
     
  2. Paragonfortytwo

    Paragonfortytwo Resident Wierdo.

    Yup, and Kokoro Dojo is Europe Hoshin HQ. Fire away. :woo:
    Jen.
     
  3. ScottUK

    ScottUK More human than human...

    Hiya Jen,

    Thanks for the quick reply. Here's a few to start you off:

    a) Can you tell me whether Kyoshi Ed Glimme has received Menkyo or Menkyo Kaiden from the either the current or any of the previous ten soke of the Hyoho Niten ichi Ryu please? He would need this to be allowed to teach Musashi's sword techniques as the techniques themselves belong to the Ryu.

    b) If Kyoshi Glimme has not received neither of the two teaching licenses above, can you confirm his level of training with the Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu?

    c) Does Kyoshi Glimme have the permission from the current soke to make a profit from teaching the Ryu's techniques and marketing them on behalf of his organisation, which I believe has no connection with the Ryu?

    d) Does Kyoshi Glimme have the right to grade (Earth Belt etc etc) someone in Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu? I appreciate that he does not mention the Ryu in name but like I previously mentioned the techniques belong to the Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu.

    Hoshin 'sword page' - http://www.hoshin.com/sword.htm

    Thanks in advance,

    Scott
     
  4. Paragonfortytwo

    Paragonfortytwo Resident Wierdo.

    Hi, Scott,
    I'm going to get back to you on that, give me a couple of days..... :cool:

    Jen.
     
  5. ScottUK

    ScottUK More human than human...

    Thanks - I look forward to hearing back from you.
     
  6. Paragonfortytwo

    Paragonfortytwo Resident Wierdo.

    Hi, Scott,
    could be down to web team overenthusiasm with the wording, I'm a bit baffled myself. I understood the sword programme to be based on the principles from Go Rin No Sho and the Godai (as the hoshinjutsu programme is) and the actual sword techniques to be an amalgum based on Kiyoshi's extensive sword knowledge, which is drawn from many different schools he has studied with. That's how it was explained to me, anyhow. Hopefully I can get a more comprehensive answer for you and get rid of any confusion.
    Jen.
     
  7. ScottUK

    ScottUK More human than human...

    Hi Jen,

    The sample video that is on the Hoshin sword page is a cursory version of Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu kenjutsu, so I doubt what you have been told is true.
     
  8. Paragonfortytwo

    Paragonfortytwo Resident Wierdo.

    Hi, Scott,

    From Hessie-Soke;
    "Kyoshi Ed does not claim to represent the Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu. The demo DVDs are all his interpretation of things he has learned with his samurai sword experience. Nothing more, nothing less..... Since Ed makes no claim to be teaching, or be a teacher of Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu and makes no claim to grading students in the Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu, this is completely baseless. You can tell this person that the Soke of the Hoshin Ryu supports Kyoshi Ed and his right to share his knowledge.
    Does the Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu have all of the movements copyrighted in the USA? I would have a hard time believing that human motion with an ancient tool of combat could be copyrighted; The Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu cannot own human motion."


    If this copyrighting were so, there would only be one school in the world teaching hip throws for example! One could be sued for using or teaching them without a valid Ryu membership! I'm sure you would agree that would be ridiculous. Equally, there are only so many different ways of swinging a katana and moving the body, crossover is inevitable.

    Warriors down the ages have learned from each other, either as enemies on the field or in training. This is hardly the middle ages where exclusivity of knowledge of the sword meant life or death; I would hope in a more enlightened age the main focus would be on cooperation, learnign from many sources and the lessons of character which may be attained through mastering such a corpus of knowledge. We are somewhat blessed in the current Age that mastery of the sword is now the passtime of gentlemen, a tool for the spiritual seeker and not a necessity of survival.

    Kiyoshi Ed also asked me to extend an open invitation to yourself and anyone else interested to go train with him and see for themselves.

    Hope that helps,
    Jen.
     
  9. ScottUK

    ScottUK More human than human...

    Hi Jen,

    Thanks for the quick reply.

    I never said he did.

    No, they are the kata of the Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu. These techniques belong to the current soke of the Ryu and him only. He is the head of the Ryu and and the caretaker of the Ryu, the tradition and the techniques.

    And that justifies him selling DVDs of Musashi's techniques?

    Like I said, the techniques he is demonstrating are not simply 'human motion' - the words 'Virgin' and 'Megastore' are not copyrighted, but the phrase 'Virgin Megastore' is. Mr Glimme is not just making a few cuts, he is selling the techniques of HNIR kenjutsu, or at least a 'version' of them.

    See comment above.

    No, it is not crossover or coincidence, it is a direct copy - if Mr Glimme claims to have created the techniques from his own personal experience, then I will state openly that he is lying and can prove so.
     
  10. Paragonfortytwo

    Paragonfortytwo Resident Wierdo.

    Scott,

    You didn't read what was written thoroughly. If you're not going to bother, then I fail to see why I should stick my neck out or persist in my effort to clarify things for you.

    #sigh# OK, if your Ryu has any legal gripe with my Ryu, you best take it up formally. Done my best for you, but I'm not going to drag either through the mud on a web board.

    Take care. Have a nice day. :)
    Jen.
     
  11. ScottUK

    ScottUK More human than human...

    Hiya Jen,

    Oh yeah I did, and I answered the relevant points.

    This is not an 'us-versus-you' thing. This is more like one of those 'one-of-your-people-has-copied-something-that-he-has-no-right-to-copy-and-is-selling-it -for-profit-and-claiming-he-has-made-it-up' type of thing.

    I have nothing against you or your school, but your soke is condoning this behaviour and it doesn't reflect well on anyone involved. I have not notified hombu of this yet.

    I beg to differ. This is the ideal place to discuss this - where the world can see it and make their own minds up on whether or not the HNIR kenjutsu has been copied. I can guarantee you that I can show you all the longsword, shortsword and two-sword techniques on Mr Glimme's DVDs even though I haven't viewed them.

    Have you seen the DVDs? Have you practiced these techniques?

    Kind regards,

    Scott
     
  12. Jirachi

    Jirachi New Member

    Hoshin

    Excuse me scott......Hi my name is Joe and as a member of the Hoshin-Ryu i believe i am involved in this conversation as much as anyone (i hope you agree)

    Reading your signature shows you are also a follower of the Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu Iai school of sword work.......and correct me if i am wrong but from a LOT of sources i believe this school to have divided numerous times since creation. Meaning there are seperate schools practising almost identical kata and all of them claiming they have direct lineage from Jinsuke. Also when the 11th headmaster died there was a division which muso shinden ryu and muso jikiden eishin ryu were both formed, so we have 2 different schools practising same kata and differing in only a few details from the original teachings of Jinsuke.

    If you have not got the point i am trying to get accross it is that many schools form out of other schools and it is inevitible that good kata will be kept causing there to be little "outwardly apparent" differences between them. If you believe kata can be copyrighted then you would probably be not studying the schools you study at present as they would not exist due to the fact that when they were created, kata will have been taken from other schools!

    Kiyoshi Ed is merely using his knowledge from the many sword schools he has studied and putting together a sword program for hoshin ryu members. Much like the whole lineage of eishin ryu and i would also believe Musashi himself.


    Regards,

    Joe Thompson ;) :cool:
     
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2006
  13. fifthchamber

    fifthchamber Valued Member

    Joe,
    Scott does Niten Ichi Ryu as well...While your argument doesn't hold much water when used against a school such as Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu it holds less when you choose to use it against the very sword school that Musashi created...One that is still passed on in Japan and one that you have failed, thus far to provide proof that your instructor studied to the degree where he would be able to demonstrate what they were for..
    You can argue all you like about the imported waza and the fact that you follow the "musashi" legend far closer than Scott does..But it doesn't hold water unless you have trained in the school you are claiming to be taught..
    Have you?
     
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2006
  14. Kogusoku

    Kogusoku 髭また伸びた! Supporter

    Joe,

    Muso Jikiden Eishin-ryu's geneology & lineage are nothing like Hyoho Niten Ichi-ryu, so it's a poor analogy to use. A bit like apples and oranges.

    I saw the techniques on the clip too. Stolen right from the Nihon No Kobudo video. Too much of a resemblance for it to be thought up otherwise. The only thing is when you do a koryu, you have to do it well and this was obviously not done so. Having seen Hyoho Niten Ichi-ryu done by the late Imai soke and the current soke, Iwami Toshio sensei in Japan, there is no mistaking this ryuha's characteristic style and way of performing techniques.
     
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2006
  15. Jirachi

    Jirachi New Member


    I am failing to see where Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu is said to be taught in Hoshin or where we say we are offering grades in this school either ?!?
     
  16. fifthchamber

    fifthchamber Valued Member

    So the videos by your teacher are for what purpose?Just showing off how well he can pick forms up from sight?Or do you think he's trying to teach them?Looks to me like he might want to teach...
    Of course..I could be wrong and he may be just a shining example of a man who preserves these arts through video because otherwise they would die out..But we both know that ain't the case...
    If your teacher is not teaching them, then why does he sell the videos at all?
    Regards.
     
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2006
  17. Kogusoku

    Kogusoku 髭また伸びた! Supporter

  18. Keikai

    Keikai Banned Banned

    In fairness to the BUJINKAN kokoro dojo, i think this should be split onto another thread as this is the friendly place for BUJINKAN yorkshire people to come just like the Walsall dojo thread, i can whole heartedly see the need for this discussion but not to the point of riding over a friendly thread.

    Spooky, do the honours. ;)
     
  19. 2E0WHN

    2E0WHN Homebrew for idiots

    I agree, says I in a dismissive manner befitting a man of incredible girth.
     
  20. Kogusoku

    Kogusoku 髭また伸びた! Supporter

    Will,

    Scott did ask if it was OK to ask these questions at the beginning of page 13 mate. Noone said no. *Shrugs shoulders*
     

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