Like i said, my arguement in this thread is simply this: Give some aspects of TMA a fair shake. But i disagree with you Monk, i mean, look at the muay thai champions in thailand. THey can fend off very well in a street fight, and they are very competitive. I read Chuck Norris's book 'the secret power within'. CHuck is an openminded guy. He trained in muay thai and Bjj after learning Tang su doo and karate. He was very sport oriented in his fighting, but he accounts to a sparring match he had with Bruce lee(bruce lee always advocated street fighting techniques). Chuck was winning in the full contact match(they sparred many many times, chuck said in his book that sometimes bruce would get the upper hand, sometimes it would be chuck, in this instance it was chuck). Fighting to compete is equally good as fighting to win in a street fight. But i will back you up on breathing, simply because i have seen first hand what some internal martial artists can do, and most of thier exersize consists of breathing. Whether that protects against getting your arm broken is beyond my knowledge, but breathing does have a place in MA.