Horse stance obsolete?

Like i said, my arguement in this thread is simply this: Give some aspects of TMA a fair shake.

But i disagree with you Monk, i mean, look at the muay thai champions in thailand. THey can fend off very well in a street fight, and they are very competitive.

I read Chuck Norris's book 'the secret power within'. CHuck is an openminded guy. He trained in muay thai and Bjj after learning Tang su doo and karate.

He was very sport oriented in his fighting, but he accounts to a sparring match he had with Bruce lee(bruce lee always advocated street fighting techniques). Chuck was winning in the full contact match(they sparred many many times, chuck said in his book that sometimes bruce would get the upper hand, sometimes it would be chuck, in this instance it was chuck).

Fighting to compete is equally good as fighting to win in a street fight.

But i will back you up on breathing, simply because i have seen first hand what some internal martial artists can do, and most of thier exersize consists of breathing. Whether that protects against getting your arm broken is beyond my knowledge, but breathing does have a place in MA.

 

a sad but much needed overview

i'm new to this particular forum so i'll summarize all my thoughts on the many points discussed here. lol bear with me
First: this whole thing started as a horse stance vs. squats discussion. one which i preferred over this one anyway horse stance is used for stretching the leg muscles (my dad's a doctor so this should go undisputed ) squats are for increasing muscle efficacy.
however horse stance can be used in combat, for example: I was sparring one time and the guy i was sparring had a very intimate relationship with high kick. i simply got into horse stance and let loose with a barrage of middle punches. that made him stop kicking and he sat there and tried to block my punches. i am not pro or con squats or horse stance they are both useful but should be used in conjuncture with other workouts for maximum results.
contrary to everything afore mentioned i dont think it matters in a real fight situation what works cuz personally i'd throw dirt in the guy's face and kick in the face or the groin after which i'd run like hell.
let me finish by saying that in saying this i did not mean to offend any of you, or undermine your position or opinion.
take care all,
_kickass
p.s. nice arguments. i enjoyed reading it.

 

I am sure they can and very good at that. Theres no argument there as I am sure any UFC guy could hold himself pretty well in a street fight aswell.

 

Kickass,

The horse stance is not for stretching. Stretches are for stretching. The horse stance is supposed to strengthen your legs.

Cybermonk,

So now (after saying training for sport isn't good for self defense) you are saying that a muay thai fighter or any UFC fighter can hold their own on the street? Which is it? Is training for sport bad or good?

Personally I think a lot of these guys who train just for SD but never do any serious noncompliant training wouldn't stand a chance against a good sportfighter, even on the street.

Here's an experiment. Take a guy who just trains for the street and let him do a little sparring. Now take a pro boxer (or substitute any full contact combat sport athlete) and teach him to open his hands and poke someone in the eye. If somehow they got in a streetfight, who would win? My guess would be the boxer (or whatever) because he understands distance, timing, etc and knows how to take a hit and dish them out. He even knows the dreaded eye poking technique. The SD guy on the other hand will be a 'master' of eye pokes and groin kicks, but may never even get the chance to use them. (I got the idea for this from Matt Thornton's website, but I'm too lazy to go and copy it just to quote it lol)

I'm not against training for purely self defense, but IMO even that training should start off as sport (competing against a resisting partner in heavy contact sparring with, preferably with as few rules as possible). I'm training in MMA primarily to compete, and then adding in the 'illegal' stuff (which isn't that hard to learn...) in case I need it on the street. To me, this seems like the logical way to train.

Look at the senshido guys. They train completely for self defense. They also do MMA-style sparring because it is a good way to test themselves. They even put on headgear that protects their face and then test out the 'shredder' on resisting opponents. (the shredder is more of a 'tool' than a technique, it involves a series of eye gouges and other 'dirty tricks')

 

Matt Thornton is an inspirational guy... im also a fan of Rodney King from Straight Blast Gym

 

Theres a simple problem with these techniques which are designed to kill or maim... you can't really practise them against a resisting opponent. At least with basics like kicking, punching, kneeing. You can practise them against a resisting opponent with a good level of safety.

 

Allow me to elaborate, the horse stance is not a stretch. it is a stance used in martial arts to develop mental toughness. putting that aside however the form of the horse stance helps stretch your muscles by maintaining a painful position without moving. that is the physical aspect (if it does not hurt when u go to horse stance you're either very very very good or you're doing it wrong) it was mentioned before on this forum that its harder for your brain to maintain a position without moving. this is why horse stance helps stretching your leg muscles.
later,
kickass

 

Kickass, you're wrong. It doesn't stretch your legs. Stretching isn't just holding a painful position, you actually have to stretch the muscles out.

In a horse stance, your knees are bent. Compare that to the stretch where you stand still with your legs straight and bend down to touch your toes. The first one fatiques the muscles by holding a strenuous position that makes you use strength to hold yourself up. The latter is actually stretching the muscles out.

Standing in a horse stance won't make you more flexible. Stretching makes you more flexible.

If I hold a dumbbell straight out in front of me and my arm gets tired and starts to hurt, will I be stretching? No, my muscles are just tired and sore. To stretch you have to make the muscles go to the edge of their normal range of motion or further.

 

u said it

good point! but the thing is if horse stance is done properly your leg muscles are beyond their normal range because you can always make your legs wider and/or go lower. that puts your legs beyond their normal range. holding that position will cause your legs to cramp and simply do the splits after, you'll be amazed at the results. just ask map member "cain"

 

I spent like 5 mins typing that from my jujitsu book and noone comments or takes not on it lol. I thought it was a very good point when i read it.

 

It was a great point, Yuki! I was going to respond when I read it but I was running late for training. Incidentally, I'd been reading that same book about two minutes before I read your response. Creepy

 

It's a brilliant book My copy is now riddles with little notes on alternations of moves, and its kinda turned into alittle Yuki notebook.

I love that fact that it's such a balanced book as well, talking about the history of NHB, the Gracies, and covering alot of aspects of unarmed combat.

It was real cheap on amazon and has become one of the best books ive ever bought Never expected it to be so big.

( You'll noticed i didn't copy the WHOLE article, just the more important bits as i myself was also running late for training as i was typing it up. )

 

Im back, first to Yuki-That post was great, it presents valid points although like everyother sport oriented person it completely ignores the importance of practicing forms.

Now to pankration:

I never questioned their ability to defend themselves against a regular guy on the street, I questioned their ability to maximize damage on an opponent who is trying to neutralize them and knows how. The ways of inflicting damage in the ring are pretty good ones but for safety reason they are not the best ones or quickes ones.

I agree, although I dont know anyone who trains for self defence who does compliant training. However if you mean a UFC guy could beat a grandmaster of a style who has been sparing hard contact since he was ten, thats another story.

No wait...fighters who dont fight in competitions dont understand distance and timing? Mate we are talking fighting here, not ballet. I think it is time to let go of whatever preconcieved ideas you have.

Thats called sparring I think.

Thats good for you, however, you say the "illegal" stuff has no way of being learnt since you cant do it against a resisting partner but now you say it is easy to learn?? Which one is it?

And that is exactly what I was saying, they use MMA type rules to train, not the other way around. If you look at the top MMA fighters they could care less about "the shredder" or anything else that goes outside tournament allowed tactics.

 

I'm not saying forms are a waste of time. Like everything, they have their merit and use.

Im just trying to put emphasis on the importance of also practicing these techniques against a resisting opponent as well.

 

Im all for that too, always pushing the envelope as to what I can actually do in sparring and we have added in attacks that many other schools wouldnt even consider. But more dangerous attacks require more protection, which seems to be the main problem.

 

Depends how you do horse stance as well.....

 

Well I read it and agreed with it Yuki, does that count?

That depends on the person.

Those were just the two first things I thought of when I tried to think of the benefits of sparring and I was in a hurry. So you think someone who has never sparred and someone who does regular full contact sparring both have the same skill level? I don't, because sparring develops all kinds of attributes.

Yeah, but sparring implies just trying to practice things and improve. Actually competing against another person ingrains an aggressive way of fighting into you, which can be necessary for self defense.

No, it's easy to learn but you can't practice it on a resisting partner as realistically as you can with 'sport' techniques. When is the last time you practiced gouging out someones eye or a full force groin shot? All I'm trying to say is that if you learn how to apply 'legal' techniques on a resisting partner, then you shouldn't have a problem aiming at their groin or something. Also, practicing eye gouges in the air etc isn't really that great of a way to practice; if you learn how to do the technique you will probably be able to do it as well as someone who repeats it in the air over and over.

Cybermonk, I think we actually agree on more things than we realize but we just have a hard time putting it in terms that we each understand.

 

I agree, I could think of many "grandmasters" that couldnt punch their way out of a papperbag.

Me either, like I said I think sparring is necessary. You could do all kinds of sparring depending on the kinds of dangers techniques pose. Or you could go hard contact with protection (like groin cups and such) and practice a great majority of these techniques. The later being the approach I take most often.

I think we agree on this point more than we realize. I agree that entering tournaments were heavy contact is the norm is a really good way to train. What I disagree with is limiting yourself to learning only the things that are available for use in the tournament only without keeping an open mind to other potentially more damaging attacks. If you close your mind to these eventually it will become second nature to you and will not be able to make use of them when needed.

I partially agree with your point, the point I was trying to make is that if you learn the legal techniques on a resisting opponent and also keep in mind that there are other ways of inflicting damage you might be better off when it comes down to life and death situation.

Yes, I agree.

 

Are we still talking horse stance?

 

I agree. Like I've said many times before, I don't just do MMA to compete. I also use it as my 'base' of techinques for self defense and my main way of testing the majority of my techniques. I also add in the 'illegal' stuff. It's just harder to practice the illegal things so being proficient in the legal stuff is more important. Things like kneeing the groin and kicking the groin are fairly easy once you practice kicking and kneeing someone in full contact, you just have to hit a different target. Things like eye gouges are simple and probably one of the most instinctive techniques. Eyes seem to be a primary target for little kids (myself included when I was a lot younger). Most of these things are common sense and you don't necessarily have to train for them. Some other things you do, but those aren't important as the legal stuff IMO.