Horse stance obsolete?

Great post.

After all, what is the point of a style? To use for fighting. If it serves us, shouldn't we be more concerned with how well it helps us achieve our results rather than carrying on the style's traditions?

If everyone though like many traditionalists do, we'd be back in the dark ages. We'd probably be ruled by the church and think that lightning was punishment from God or something. As science advances, you either move with it or become outdated.

 

That has got to be one of the best paragraphs ive read on MAP... I seen Pankration quote it at the bottom of the page, without the original posters name in the quote, which made me wonder who the hell posted it. Thats like poetry 1ONEfighting

Lightning isn't a punishment!??!?!

Like the famous old Descartes quote...

"Doubt is useful, since it free's us from prejudice." - Rene Descartes

 

It is also true that old breathing excersises are more powerful and efficient than anything science has come up with, as a matter of fact, name a good modern breathing excersise to strengthen your internal organs. But then again you dont have to worry much about that when you fight padded up.

I have seen schools that do just that, you practice how to go for scisor-type takedown on the air before trying it someone. Mastering the basics is important, we do algebra before we do calculus dont we?

It seems that I didnt explain myself properly and assume familiarity with monkey styles, they usually fight in a low stance, whichever position you assume will most likely be very low which lead to constant strain on the knees. The only thing which compares to the strain is holding a horse stance for quite some time.

I agree, I wouldnt mess with tendons in any way, be it trying to stretch them or make them stronger. Also your point about muscle fibers is valid, that is why we have excersises like jumping on the horse etc etc.

At some point a long time ago, we had sessions where one guy would do a horse stance on top of another guy's horse stance. Its worth noting that the training that appeals to the masses is, in most cases, only the tip of the iceberg of traditional training. But like I said, squats are good, they just serve a different purpose, thats why I use them aswell.

 

Okay, I was just reading a post by Adam McG about buying grip strength products. Now I thought all the hand has is white muscle? You can increase your grip strength, does that mean that the tendon strength is increased? I would have assumed so.

If the above holds true, I can't see why you couldn't increase strength in other tendons.
Are you also saying, (To Pankration90) that there is a difference between white muscle and tendons? I don't know hence the question - I thought they were the same thing...

 

Horse Stance

 

and also known in karate as "kiba dachi".

We TMA's need to be reminded that this is the MMA forum.

Certainly we can all agree that this particular stance is a forward squat.

Primarily our instructor uses these to torture us!

Good article I came across a long time ago in Kungfu Illstr.
Stances: Classical or Contemporary

I have to agree with Yukimushu with that quote by you Trent *thumbs up!

Obsolete??? nah....!

 

Its funny that he calls the "soft bow" the "boxer's stance" as if it was anything new while its being a part of tai chi for thousands of years and is in many traditional systems as well.

 

What exactly do you mean by strengthening internals organs? They aren't like muscles - you can't exercise them really. What is the purpose of these exercises? The only 'benefits' of qi gong and other chi exercises that I have seen have all been party tricks (such as filling a glass bottle with water, then striking the top while 'focusing your chi' which results in the bottom of the bottle breaking off). Also, in your TMA school, do you fight with no rules, using no protection? By this I mean no cups, no mouth pieces, no pads, nothing. Do you go for knockouts, eye gouges, groin shots, fish hooking, biting, etc? I doubt it, I bet you spar with pads like the rest of us. If people can compete wearing only lightly padded grappling gloves and no other padding and come out fine, I don't think breathing exercises are necessary.

Math and punching are completely different. Extending your arm is like picking up your pencil, by the time you actually start math you already know how to pick up pencils. Likewise, if you're learning to punch I would assume you're intelligent enough to extend your arm. If you have a learning disability, maybe learning the arm extension by itself is necessary, but the rest of us do just fine learning hip movment, leg movement, etc at the same time lol.

It's not that complicated. When practicing your kicks, do you do hand stands and practice extending your legs? That is about the same as standing in a horse stand and extending your arm...

In the other quote you clearly said HOPPING. That is a dynamic movement, not holding a position statically. Likewise, if you are moving around in a low stance, that is still movement. Squats are more useful for that purpose than sitting in a horse stance, too. In squats there is even more strain on your legs because you are lifting a weight.

If you're jumping in the horse stance anyways, why have static horse stance training or have so much emphasis on it? Or you could just do squats, which have the added benefit of weight other than your upper body.

Okay...so one guy has an extra 150-200 pounds of weight to deal with in a static position while the other guy has no extra weight? Wouldn't it be better just to use barbells?

White muscle fibers and red muscle fibers are all muscle fibers and make up your muscles. Tendons are tissues that attach your muscles to your bones, they don't actually move or do anything. You can't strengthen tendons, only muscles.

 

Thats a lot of questions but Ill try to answer them. You can make your organs stronger and healthier, a friend of the sifu could take all kinds of blows to the body without even flinching, at some point we were celebrating and the man(roughly around 60 years old) stood there and took kicks and punches from everyone for several minutes while having a conversation.
Another man could tie a wire around his stomach and pop it with his breathing, I have tried it myself but couldnt do it, if you manage any of these "party tricks" I would appreciate if you let me know.

It is not how we spar but rather what the intent of our training is, we dont train to spar, we train to fight because the goal is not to be good at sparring(although it is a byproduct of training) but rather to be good at fighting. I have sparred without protection, it is something I started a few years ago and do it on and off roughly once every month, you get hit without protection and its a whole different feeling than with gloves, definately a more uneven impact. At the end of the day MMA people train to compete and as such perform very good in such competitions but padded combat is not the end of the line and this is an aspect where MMA training is somewhat lacking.

By reading this I see that our training philosophies are more different than I had previously thought. In my mind, at least, picking up the pencil is very very simple compared to performing a punch. But maybe your view has something to do with pro fighters breaking their knuckles during street fights.

No need for me to argue this, if you were familiar with what I am saying I believe you wouldnt even be arguing it yourself. Remember I said strain on the knees not the legs.

We are just going around and around here mate, we do both because like I said, they have different purposes. Squats are better for one thing, horse stance is better for another, whats so hard about that?

Yes, you have that one right, we switch later and then the guy on bottom is now on top, the guy on top has no weight but has a harder time keeping his balance. Again, different purposes.

Before this turns into a war I would like to say that you have valid points and as long as we continue to discuss things in a civil matter we could learn something from each other.

 

I love the way you go through peoples posts with a fine comb Pankration hehe

And there's me thinking it was some kind of sushi

 

I hope you're not being sarcastic...

Taking blows to the body seems to have more to do with having strong abdominal muscles than with strong internal organs, but I didn't delve far enough into qi gong to really notice a difference. Maybe you're right, but it doesn't seem necessary to me at this point in my training.

I read a story a while back about a four year old kid who fell down and someone drove a van over his stomach. He screamed, which caused his lungs, abs, etc to tense up, and he survived but had a tire mark over his stomach. Breathing can be important, but it has more to do with breathing correctly at the right time than doing breathing exercises IMO.

Fair enough, but I hope you don't dimiss sparring completely as it is a very useful training tool.

Actually if you view MMA competitions as a training tool, it is very useful. Fighting full contact (going for a knockout or submission) with very small open-fingered gloves, a mouth piece, and cup is more realistic than most forms of sparring. Sure in a real fight you could run if given the chance, but if that's all you train for I suggest you take up track and field rather than martial arts.

Of course punching is more complex than picking up a pencil, because it involves more than just extending your arm. You have to move your whole body into it. If you practice just extending your arm, that's what you're going to get used to. Maybe the fact that pro fighters tend to hit harder than many non-pro fighters has more to do with them breaking their hands in street fights? I know plenty of non-martial artists who have broken their hands in street fights as well, so it's not caused by training in boxing or MMA etc. It has more to do with hitting someone really hard in the face.

We may have to just agree to disagree here. When I was in CMA, we did a lot or 'horse stance' training (not to mention 'tiger stance' training where we had to keep our upper legs parallel to the ground *ouch*). However, our 'horse stance' was actually having your feet shoulder width apart, not how most people do it. This was basically doing wall sits. Those IMO are more useful than standing in a normal horse stance, but I've benefited more from squats and jumping squats (these I do without weights so I don't screw up my knees any more than I did before form using ankle weights) more than any other leg exercises I've done.

 

I somewhat agree with you here, although the man I mentioned was taking blows not only in the stomach but also in the chest, hips area, lower legs. We didnt hit him in the eyes and other places like that because frankly I dont think any training can help you with that.

I saw a guy on tv who fell of his motorcycle while doing a trick in the expressway and a car ran over him and nothing happened to him. Im not saying you need to do qigong for this but you will have to be really lucky to have your body react properly if you havent trained for it. In some way I share your view of breath excersise not being that important at this point in my training, im an external stylist and have just recently gone into tai chi.

I dont think you could really make an assesment of your fighting skills without making use of full contact sparring. Its a very usefull tool, there is no doubt about that.

There is a difference between doing your art/arts without any tournament influence and then entering tournaments to test your skills/train, and training for the tournaments.
By the way I did track and field in my younger years

A valid point, I havent met any martial artists who have broken their hands in the street but I dont see why I couldnt take your word on it. However, if you land your punches with properly aligned wrist is it almost imposible to cause damage to your fist. It is more probable that they have broken their hands due to improper alignment of the wrist rather than by hitting too hard. You could break your toe kicking someone aswell but I havent met anyone that this has happened to that didnt use improper technique.

The idea of very deep horse stances is one that I havent been introduced to, the horse stance we do is roughly shoulder width apart and feet pointing forward rather than outward. Like I have posted repeatedly here, squats are a great excersise and like any other excersise its not complete, thats why people do different kinds of excersises along with their squats(or should anyway). I understand you have some experience with CMAs but the monkey style stances are something that no one can expect to understand without actually doing them.

 

I dont know if this has been covered * i was too lazy to read whole thread* But horse stance to front stance is used in Hung gar to develop powerful strikeslet alone strong legs. *i wonder why none of us who were trained to use stances never use them in fights as the saying goes "you are only as strong as your stance"??

 

lol no im not being sarcastic lol, im being sincere

You'll find that alot of the pro MMArtists are prepared to fight without gloves. If you remember, most of Vale Tudo is without gloves, as is the first UFC compititions. Gloves we're introduced to protect the fists of the fighters, and to prevent so many cuts which made MMA look even more brutal and sick than it was / is.

Alot of companies weren't interesting in sponsering fighters or mma events because of the reputation these events had which was only enhanced due to the results of fighting with no gloves.

With this reputation the sport had very small chances of becomming as big as it is.


Whilst i completely agree with you that gloves isn't the end of the line when it comes to realistic training... I feel i'd benifit more from training or sparring 3 / 4 days a week with gloves than to train once a month without gloves.

 

Where every area you mentioned has muscles right underneath the skin except for the shin (which I assume is what you meant by lower leg, if you meant the back of it then there is muscle there, too). The shin doesn't have any internal organs anyways.

True, but there is nothing stopping mixed martial artists from training in illegal techniques, too. At my old gym (which recently closed down) we trained in elbows a little bit, and talked about other things for the street that weren't legal in MMA competitions (or any competition for that matter). Poking someone in the eye or kneeing the in the groin isn't that hard really. Who would you rather have attack you on the street, someone who trained in martial arts for self defense and didn't do much competing or a world-class professional fighter?

with an adrenaline dump it's hard to make every single technique how it is supposed to be.

 

One thing alot of you guys seem to forget, when karate first came to america in the 1950's, it met alot of critisism from the western fighters, most particularly boxers and wrestlers. Karate had left a big impression on the western world at that time(though there were no mcdojo's.
Ive met alot of boxers that could kick many karate fighters asses(as well as any other stylist) but there are karate fighters of the same caliber. Obviosly however, the fact that there are now lots of mcdojo's(a hell of alot infact) its hard to prove old training methods properly.

Look at yamaguchi the cat gogen, that guy does almost everything the old way, but he's a nut case fighter.

And then there are the thai mutay thai teachers. The man is 100% Thai, and he is a small old man. But he does traditional thai exersizes(no, no horse stance, but other 'outdated' exersizes) and he can KICK my masters ass any time( my master admitted this)

As for practicing punches in both horse stance and a boxers stance, what is so silly about it? Like i said, TMA are often very stubborn in accepting new practice ideas, but alot 'modern' martial artists are the opposite, they are not willing to look back and see the uses of some other exersizes. Whats so silly? If you can punch hard in horse stance, then practicing your power in a classic boxing or MT stance, you have more power. I noticed that my self.
P.S. I am unfamiliar with alot of terms.......

 

I wonder if that has anything to do with him using trad training methods, or maybe it's because most thai boxers that are from Thailand train in muay thai from when they are like five years old on.

Find one example of a 'modern' martial artist who will ignore something just because it's used in 'traditional' styles. I for one don't, but having spent over a year doing horse stance training I really see no point. It did nothing for me but help me stay in a horse stance longer, but even when I actually used it in fighting I was there for maybe a second at most.

A boxer's punch isn't just about the arms. You have to pivot on the ball of your foot, use your legs, use your hips, use your torso, use your shoulder, use your elbow, etc. There is no point at all in just practicing extending your arm, that isn't even half of the punch. Punching in a horse stance doesn't make you be able to punch harder. If you want to punch harder, lift weights and hit a heavy bag. Hitting the air while in a horse stance does nothing.

Again, when learning to kick, do you do a handstand and extend your leg? No, so why stand in a horse stance and extend your arm? :bang:

 

Explian this school, was it a touch contact school? Was it a mcdojo?

Exactly, the power comes from body movement. But if you CAN hurt someone with just extending your arms, just how badly could you hurt someone if you used a boxers punch?(assuming you can punch properly using a boxers or mt kickboxers stance)

I can understand why most boxers dont use horse stance and conventional boxing punch practice. To even experement to see if a combination of horse stance and normal punching practice helps would take a long time to see if there are any results.

I wish i were born in thailand...........
But on this topic, if he had been using traditional thai training methods and is that tough since he was 5, then there must be something to it.
Most thai boxers in thailand do traditonal exersizes, and american Muay thai practitionars who 'updated' their training methods would not be able to compete with the thai.
But then again, if a 5 year old thai boy screws up, his daddy probably beats the hell out of him for failing.........maybe its just intensity that matters.

 

The difference is not that some methods are totally incorrect, it's that there are ways, better ways and best ways. Horse stance is not one of the better ways to develop... well, anything in fighting really, aside from mental toughness!

Practicing punching in horse stance is like dancing without any legs. Power comes from mechanics and speed with a certain movement. What does punching in horse stance develop better than punching a heavy bag with full mechanics? This is the difference between many TMA methods and MMA methods. Like I said: Good, better, best.

 

This is going around in circles now. You'll find that most modern mixed martial artists are open to techniques no matter what art or how traditional. As long as the technique actually works well against a resisting opponent who's intent on kicking your face in... It's not about style vs style, too hell with tradition and styles...

If that fancy technique isn't effective against a resisting opponent, then im the one who ends up with a smashed up face... not the style.

My health and well being is far more important than some stupid style or fancy technique; because if it doesn't work, then im buggered.


And no matter what you say; there are many styles out there which have stupid techniques that aren't going to do jack against someone who wants to hurt me before i hurt him.