Horse stance obsolete?

Discussion in 'MMA' started by Anonymouse, Aug 30, 2004.

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  1. notquitedead

    notquitedead used to be Pankration90

    Slindsay, you are truly the wisest of all MAP'ers. :D
     
  2. Slindsay

    Slindsay All violence is necessary

    Oh I forgot this, I was thinking recently that if you dropped into horse stance when a sweep came at your legs then you wouldnt be as likely to get your leg swept, Anyone have any thoughts/experiences with this?
     
  3. Slindsay

    Slindsay All violence is necessary

    See thats what I've been trying to tell everyone...
     
  4. notquitedead

    notquitedead used to be Pankration90

    The best thing to do IMO when someone tries to sweep you isn't dropping into a horse stance. If they try to sweep your right leg, shift the weight to the left, pick the right up, and put it back down further back to regain support. If you're in a typical horse stance all they have to do is push you over (I don't care what you say, with your feet that far apart you have nothing keeping you from falling backwards or forwards. If you keep your legs closer it's not as bad, but still not that great).
     
  5. Trent Tiemeyer

    Trent Tiemeyer Valued Member

    If I am trying to kick your leg out, I would definitely appreciate your having the forethought to place your weight on that leg.:p
     
  6. Slindsay

    Slindsay All violence is necessary

    I suppose so, what I was thinking was that if you where big enough then the extra solidness would make the leg to difficult to sweep? Ahh well, maybe not, this is what happens when you dont get to spar with low kicks in the mix I suppose.

    So what may in fact work is going into back stance so the leg being targetted is not important to yor balance?
     
  7. cybermonk

    cybermonk New Member

    Hehehe, that would just be too good to be true. :D
    To defend against sweeps I like the false stance/cat stance, but of course I dont hold that one either, shift, achieve your goal and back to offensive stance.
     
  8. AAAhmed46

    AAAhmed46 Valued Member

    Why not? Have they tried? Never seen one try, alot of them take a karate class for a month or a year and judge everything they see in that time. Or just listen to what the boxing intructor says about horse stance without thier own testing and study.
    While its true, alot of TMA close thier minds to new and improved training practices of MMA , alot of MMA, close thier minds to some TMA practice exersizes, because the theory is different.
    AN example would be african martial arts. THey are often tribal in nature but do some unorthodox stuff, like the way the jump around is different, often bobbing their heads in some wierd ways(I dont know anything about african martial arts, i dont know any names exept nubian wrestling) i just saw a sparring match. But they did some wierd stuff, like moving thier heads around.

    Seemed agile as hell though!
     
  9. Yukimushu

    Yukimushu MMA addict

    Because it's silly...

    It's like practising to punch whilst stood on 1 foot because if you can master a punch whilst on that 1 foot, it'll be an easily transferrable skill when on both feet.

    It's ignoring all the properties which make a punch powerful and strong...
     
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2004
  10. Ad McG

    Ad McG Troll-killer Supporter


    Agreed. If training such an unfavourable position is so good, boxers would use it in their training. However, they don't because it's a silly concept.
     
  11. cybermonk

    cybermonk New Member

    I am a traditional martial artist but I dont hold the belief that punching in the horse stance makes your punches stronger. I think it goes to basics, when you start you concentrate on punching properly just using your arms, but hey, why not toughen your legs and mind a bit while you are it? Once you have the correct arm movements down you can move up to using your lower body to power your punch aswell, some schools go as far as concentrating on body shifts without punching aswell before making the students put it all together.

    However, as I already stated before I do believe the horse stance serves many valid purposes. Usually if you are going to learn a very low monkey style you have to be able to hold your horse stance for a long time to ensure your knees will be strong enough to handle it, squatting is not the same as being in a low stance hoping around for a long time, and as such it wont give you what you need in this case. But like someone already mentioned the MMA world and TMA world are somewhat isolated for one reason or another. I am not among these though, I spar anyone I could get with and I look into good excercises, I research and study other systems although I dont take many people's approach of training extensively in them or adding moves from them into my style. I believe the MMA world is going in a very good path, but unlike what many people believe, evolution and development is not exclusive to the MMA world.
     
  12. wcrevdonner

    wcrevdonner Valued Member

    Hmm...its a good thread I see here me hearties. To add my two pennies...

    I remember at a seminar last year, a very reputable MAist talked about the difference between the white muscle (tendons) and the red muscle, and how a lot of arts work the red but never the white.
    He then took the example of looking how a Gorilla would throw its arms, which aren't that muscular - but then suggested if you would like to be hit by it? to which I think most of us here wouldn't; the reason why its so strong is because of the tendon strength it has...

    The point being, (I think, after all that silliness about gorillas!) is that the horse stance, and static work in general I think helps strengthen your tendons, which is a massive supporting structure in the body. It also helps builds your resistance to latic acid build up, (as does squatting before any of you ask!) but in a different way I think.

    (Notice the lots of 'I thinks', potential disclaimers here as Im not 100% sure!)

    However, I would point out that Im not sure if a lot of MAists, TMA and MMA alike work the tendons as much as they should do, and perhaps why you get a lot of static work in TMA since they realised its importance? I also think its harder to build up tendon strength rather than muscular strength. It would be interesting to hear this from a silat POV since Im sure they have tendon exercises in their art...
     
  13. Slindsay

    Slindsay All violence is necessary


    Why do you assume that boxing or MMA has reached the pinacle of trainning? Just because their techniques are more modern and scientific than others doesnt mean they've found out everything, just that they are confident what they have works for it's purpose and works well.

    Have all the TMA techniques been tested scientifically? I doubt it, maybe they still have loads to offer?
     
  14. Ad McG

    Ad McG Troll-killer Supporter


    Because they advance and test their training, and there are millions of pounds that are invested into better methods. It seems obvious to me that training in a restricted stance isn't going to benefit what is a full-body movement.
     
  15. Trent Tiemeyer

    Trent Tiemeyer Valued Member

    We will never achieve perfection, but that won't stop us from striving for it. If a traditional method of training holds merit, we compare and contrast with similar modern methods, and use what works best. We question everything. Our allegiance lies not to the art, but to ourselves. When we fight, it is our ass on the line, not boxing, or jiujitsu, or kung fu.
     
  16. TigerAn1

    TigerAn1 A Southern Praying Mantis

    We use juchoom sohgi for Tan Jon breathing, and for arm excercises.
     
  17. Trent Tiemeyer

    Trent Tiemeyer Valued Member

    What's "juchoom sohgi"?
     
  18. Slindsay

    Slindsay All violence is necessary

    I would hazard a guess as it meaning "Horse Riding Stance".
     
  19. notquitedead

    notquitedead used to be Pankration90

    It's also true that a lot of TMA exercises completely ignore modern science and anatomy. ;) Modern sports exercises are designed using modern knowledge. A lot of traditional exercises don't even compare because they didn't know what we do now. I'm insulting TMA's, it's common sense.

    That's not exactly a good idea. ;) As we have said, there is more to punching than extending your arm. Learning to extend your arm right is the EASY part. You don't need to isolate that. Your idea is like only practicing the how to grab somebody to do a takedown instead of actually learning the takedown and practicing that.

    Actually you have it backwards. If you're going to be 'hopping' around in a low stance, squats are ideal because you actually move while doing them. A horse stance is static- it stays in one spot. It builds endurance for staying in that spot. It doesn't increase your ability to hop for long periods of time.

    I'm fairly certain it is physically impossible to strengthen a tendon, because all they do is hold the muscle to the bone. They don't expand or contract like muscles do, so they can't get stronger. White (aka 'fast twitch') muscle fibers are the ones that make you faster while red muscle fibers ('slow twitch') help you endure a static position longer. White muscle fibers are developed by explosive, dynamic movements (plyometrics, such as jumping, squatting quickly, etc) not staying in one position.

    Martial artists often talk about how speed is more useful than power and that weightlifting like a power lifter (lifting slow to develop stability) is bad and this is the reason- yet they do exercises that essentially do the same thing they crticize. If you want to develop speed, do plyometric exercises. If you want leg strength, lunges and squats (high weight, low rep, lifting quickly is the best, if you want you can go down slowly to develop endurace because you can't go down faster than gravity will allow anyways) are the way to go.

    If you really insist on using the horse stance for leg strengthening, why not do it with weights? I've never seen anyone do that.
     
  20. Slindsay

    Slindsay All violence is necessary

    You dont watch enough old kung fu films in that case.
     
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