Hooks in from back mount - what are the risks of locking the ankles?

Discussion in 'Brazilian Jiu Jitsu' started by slipthejab, Dec 12, 2006.

  1. slipthejab

    slipthejab Hark, a vagrant! Supporter

    When I'm working submissions from the back one - let's say an rear naked choke - one of the most common things to do is get your hooks in. Not only do you get points for it in comps - but it helps you to control and stay with your opponent.

    The other day I made the mistake of locking my ankles while backmounted on my opponent.. he was able to do something that caused a lot of pain - and almost made me lose the choke even though I got it on fairly fast and deep.

    It happened after I locked my ankles - we rolled and I ended up on my back but still taking his back and putting on the choke - my hooks still in and ankles locked.

    Today one of my calves was sore, sore, sore. I couldn't for the life of me figure out why... hadn't hit the gym for a leg workout... didn't get caught with a roundhouse kick there... and then I realized it was whatever my opponent did when I locked my ankles while I had backmount. :eek:

    I think he straightened out hoping to cause me to lose my hooks.

    My coach said locking your ankles when you have your hooks... but then we got onto something else and I forgot to ask more questions about it.

    So here goes some questions:

    1) What does your school teach in regards to locking your ankles when you've taken someones back and got your hooks in? Do they teach it's a big no no?

    2) I realize now that it may be a possible ankle break/sprain if we'd rolled forward and I had my hooks in and ankles locked out. What do ya think?

    3) Can a triangle (to the midsection) be used interchangabley for the hooks in when in the backmount position or is the positioning different enought to make it not work as well?

    4) Have you ever gotten back mount, hooks in and then locked your ankles?
    What did you think? Did your opponent break it open by straightening out?
  2. aikiMac

    aikiMac aikido + boxing = very good Moderator Supporter

    I remember seeing someone in a UFC fight get into position for a RNC with a body triangle. The tapout came before the choke was complete, though. Apparently the winner was squeezing so hard with the body triangle that the loser tapped out from that, before the RNC was finished.
  3. TheMightyMcClaw

    TheMightyMcClaw Dashing Space Pirate

    There's a leglock that's applied when your opponent crosses his feet from back control. I'm not sure exactly how it goes, but it basically entails crossing your legs over your opponents and pushing down. Done to completion, I believe it breaks both ankles.
    That's why in BJJ they emphasize never, ever, ever crossing your ankles in back control.

    The leglock can't be applied against a body triangle per se, but sometimes it slips a bit and you end up with your ankles crossed in front of your opponent, where he CAN apply the lock. I'm a big fan of the body triangle, as it seems harder to escape than the hooks, and works well for long legged individuals (like myself).
  4. slipthejab

    slipthejab Hark, a vagrant! Supporter

    Ah interesting.. yeah I've got long legs... sometimes stupidly long for my shorter opponents.. I end up having to take up the gaps in my leg holds that my opponents had been directing diesal trucks through. :D

    So I usually find I can get a triangle lock on most people without much strain.
  5. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    1) NEVER lock your ankles TOGETHER when you have someone's back. There are many reasons for this, for instance, they only need to grab your feet and apply pressure on the top foot to put you into a painful lock. If you are talking about locking your ankles but not together, I need to think about that more because I'm having a hard time picturing what you mean.

    2) Not sure because I'm not sure how you are locking your ankles (are they locked together or in some other way). If together, see answer #1... Never lock them together when you have back mount.

    3) Midsection triangle lock won't work on guys a lot bigger than you unless you have very long legs. However, against mere mortals, it is an excellent ATTACK. You want to position it so that it is low enough that it squeezes the kidneys (this can cause injury so be careful about using it in training). Important, at the moment of the squeeze, most people will drop their hands to try to separate your legs, at this point you can get a very good RNC on them.

    4) I think I can picture what you mean. If your opponent is breaking out by straightening out, then there is probably an issue of where you are applying pressure on them. I was taught that you want your opponent to stretch out as this prevents them from using their hips and legs for leverage. So ideally, you are getting your opponent to do exactly what you want them to do so that you can finish them off.

    I think you might be missing some component of pressure. Try this... when they start to straighten up, wrap around their forehead and pull it back and into your chest, with your thigh squeeze around their kidney area on the lower back. Imagine that you are stretching them out and cause them to arc their back at the same time.

    This should take all the strength out of their legs as well as set you up for a good RNC.
  6. bcullen

    bcullen They are all perfect.

    That's the one: Rebel lists another danger that can happen if you cross your legs but the one mentioned above is the worst. They cross legs over the top of yours and pull down with the legs and push up with the hips. Did the same thing myself, got someones back for the first time and thought I was going to win for once and the next thing I know, terrible leg pain and I'm tapping out. "I''m winning! I'm winning! AHH, <expletive>!"
  7. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Oh yeah, you are right bcullen.... that's the ONE!!!

    Been so long since I've crossed my ankles or anyone has done that to me, I forgot that technique... :cry:
  8. slipthejab

    slipthejab Hark, a vagrant! Supporter


    You're not alone brother... you're not alone. :p
  9. Ghost Frog

    Ghost Frog New Member

    I've been taught NEVER to do it for the reason mentioned above, i.e. they bring their legs up and ankle lock you.

    I've seen lots of people use a triangle on the midsection, though. i think its different because your ankles are crossed to one side, so its harder for them to apply the lock. If they can grab your feet, though, you're in trouble!
  10. Mushroom

    Mushroom De-powered to come back better than before.

    Thats the ifrst counter we were taught against the RNC if the attacker crosses the ankles.

    Thats why you just hook the feet into the thighs when choking...some people still try to go for it, but that would mean having your hands down to grab the feet, leaving your head wide open to cinch in the choke

    (Matt Hughes vs BJ Penn 1)

    I did that mistake and started crying. I felt like my calf was about to be torn right off as i tried to pull it out.
  11. mrsumo

    mrsumo Invictus Maneo

    Hooking the ankles with your legs and bridging with the hips is a pretty painful counter to hooks. I happen to be large enough where not many folks can cross their feet. An opponent is limited to hooking under the thighs. Another point to look out for though is how high your feet are when applying your hooks. I am more than happy to grab a hapless foot and pull it in for a nasty heel hook.
  12. Oversoul

    Oversoul Valued Member

    Huh? I thought it had already been established in this thread that crossing the feet was not a good idea...
  13. slipthejab

    slipthejab Hark, a vagrant! Supporter

    Hmm I didn't read his post as being pro crossing the feet. I thought he meant that he was large enough around the midsection as to make it difficult for anyone to actually cross their ankles... which yes... I now realize is a big NO-NO for the backmount position.


    But... maybe Mr.Sumo can clarify what he meant.

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