So I'm driving home the other day listening to public radio and I hear a story about 'honor killings' in Iraq. I was floored when I heard what goes on in these 'tribes' over in Iraq. I say tribes because that is the term the Iraqi's in question used as their reason for performing these 'honor killings'. Tribal traditon. Basically it goes like this: Girl is kidnapped by hoodlums and they send a note to the family that if they want their 16 yr old daughter returned, their son must quit the police force. The son quits the police force and their daughter is returned. Here's the kicker.... The daughter has shamed the family and must be killed to restore the honor of the family. That's right, I said killed. It doesn't matter that she was taken against her will, the fact is she was taken. Her virginity may be at stake here, and if a woman is not a virgin before marriage, she has dishonored her family and must be erased. As if that in itself isn't crazy enough... instead of having her checked out to make sure she's still 'pure', they figure enough damage has been done to the honor of the family and they have cousin whoever shoot her in the head in front of her family. They pay off a friend at the cemetary to quietly bury the body and pretend like nothing happened. There - honor restored to the family. These are the people who our military is 'helping'?!? These tribal traditions are just plain crazy! I knew women were looked down upon, but this is just nuts. I was sick hearing this broadcast! If a man is taken from the family and returned, they celebrate by having a huge party and welcoming him back to the family. If a woman is taken, she must die to restore honor to the family. I know they have their own culture there, but that is just plain wrong.
Judging other cultures based on your own moral code is a dodgy thing to do. I agree the story seems messed up but clearly you don't understand the cultural climate this occured in - and nor do I and nor do most people in the West I'll wager. If it even occured this way in the first place. Journalists need to sell stories and will often slant things to increase the attention it will receive. It's probably best to withold judgement in cases where all the evidence is not clear. Yeah...that's one way to look at it...
The journalist in this case did not present it with a 'slant'. She simply presented the story and let the people talk. You can hear it here.
Reminda me of the stroy I heard promoting agape love when I did religious studies. Some historian discusing ethics talked about an analogy where a stranger is offered a room for the night by a humble father, who feeds him, clothes him, like an honourable man. Then hoodlum show up, say they want to beat the stranger in question, and in his honour, the father offers his daughter to them instead so they do not harm the stranger. Daughter raped and beaten. Problem solved. Now the point of this story was that it is our duty to protect others with our lives, even the strangers. Though it leaves the question: if he was really going to be honourable, he'd go face the hoodlums and not throw his daughter to them. Sometimes i just dont get this crazy world. The excuse of 'it's tradition' is absurd. Yes there will always be cultural differences - but somethings need to change, instead of living by rules set out by descendants hundreds if not thousands of years ago.
Eeeer these honour killings happen in the UK as well you know, they are in the news quite often. Usually its a father killing his daughter for marrying a white/christian guy or something. Or throwing acid in the womans face seems to be the 'traditional' method. I'd be really quite suprised if they didn't happen in the US too, maybe they don't make the news as much over there as they do here.
Yes, but at least if these sorts of things happen in the UK or US, then the perpetrater is prosecuted and punished. Stump: Judging a culture that muders innocent people is "a dodgy thing to do"? The girl was mudered for the crime of being kidnapped and victimized; what else do I need to understand? "Iraqi law makes a distinction between murder and honor killing. The majority of so called honor cases probably never even get to court, but when they do, the sentence is perhaps six months or a year, or more likely, suspended. Women's rights groups say religious leaders have done nothing to stop honor killing, which is all too often a cover for domestic violence." Another quote, this one from a man who beats his wife with a rubber hose and defends his right to do so: "There is violence against women. It's part of the tradition of the tribes. It's in our blood, it's custom, it's tradition." This is the culture you're defending? Very nice.
I was just about to say that until i saw your post. Defending such a culture is as bad as condoning the actions; terrible. Just as a side note, i was born in Baghdad, Iraq and lived there till i was 6 years old, although iam not muslim and we practically lived in a different world inside the same city, these things are heard off and looked upon with disgust.
This is quite a common occurrence in areas where there is a predominantly Muslim population (For the record, I am aware that most Muslims are peace-loving people and therefore this is NOT an attack on them, much as I despise organised religion). Nevertheless, there have been cases in countries like Turkey, where daughters who have been sexually assaulted have been killed by their own family for "tainting their name". While I neither condone nor understyand this behaviour, this can hardly be used as justification for Western prejudice towards the Islamic world. After all, America has more than it's fair share of inbreeding, among it's redneck population. That's hardly a benchmark for morality, is it?
there was a recent case in the UK where a young muslim girl was killed by her father for dating a young christian. he was eventually charged with murder but his defence (honour killing) was considered
As much as I like to remain open to other cultures and try to respect their social norms and mores... honor killing is just retarded. If I put what I really thought about it I'd get banned. We all know that I can save that ban for a funnier topic than honor killings. The whole issue of honor killings really underscores the way women are viewed in much of the middle east and south asia. They are basically something to own and do with what one will. They are about the equivalent of furniture.. or a dog. They have less rights than a dog for the most part. So it doesn't really come as much of a shock that they can be summarily executed because some idiots sense of self importance and pride has been stepped on.
Theres something satisfying about the way that when they try it in a civilised country they get their balls nailed to the wall.
I couldn't agree more. I would never judge an entire population based on the actions of a few. My point is to concentrate on the horrific events that are happening among the few there. Inbreeding among the redneck population heh... no prejudice there. There's enough shady happenings in the US, but at least there are laws against it and violators can be prosecuted.
Justin, I don't know that holding up the US as the shining gem of the rule of law is really all that. Many of the countries that have problems like honor killings are the same countries the the US government helps when it suits them and screws them when it feels like it. Afghanistan is a prime example of this. You only have to study your American foreign policy history to realize that much of strife and suffering in countries like this is directly attributable to the foreign policies of the US. While I don't condone or agree with honor killings... the US is hardly somehow a bastion of law and order that has the moral highground. If one considers their foreign policy... they are far from it.
He didn't say anything about holding up the US as "the shining gem of the rule of law". He didn't even mention our foreign policy or international relations track record. He just said that in the US there are laws against that sort of thing, which is completely true. So I'd appreciate it if people around here didn't use every post as some sort of pretext to tell the Americans on this forum what a terrible, evil country they live in.
Good thing you can read sunshine. Now learn to read subtext. Obviously he didn't mention the US foreign policy. I did. It's germain to the conversation. If you don't like that.... too bad... so sad. Frankly speaking I don't give a rat's ass what you'd appreciate. If you don't understand the concept of a forum and that it's open to conjecture about subject matter germain to the central theme of the thread then you need to be doing something else with your time. Simple eh. When will Americans ever learn that critiques of American foriegn policy is not an indictment of the individual... but exactly what it is... a critique of it's foriegn policy. Stop getting your patriotic panties bunched. :bang:
Wow - it seems this thread took a bad turn here... I agree that the US is far from the 'gem of the rule of law'. The foreign policy of the US is something I have nothing nice to say about, but it really has nothing to do with the fact that honor killings are pointless, outdated, cave-man like activities that need to go away. My whole point of this thread was only to bring to light that these horrible acts are still committed, even condoned by many. That's a sure sign of a messed up group if you ask me. Now bringing foreign policy into the picture... why the hell are we over there in a country that supports this kind of behavior? Does the US really think they can go over there and strong-arm these folks into some kind of calm rule? I think not. Based on the comments of the guy who shot his own cousin to 'restore honor to the family' I would say a lot of people need to grow up before there will ever be a stable governement in Iraq. Like I said earlier, the US has laws against this sort of behavior. They may not be enforced to the extent that would make us all happy, but at least they are there. There are no laws against honor killings in Iraq - it would be against tribal traditions.
'Honour killings' occur on every continent, in every culture, but the term is ussually reserved for specific instances in North Africa, the Middle East and Central Asia. Offences that condem women to honour killings vary from her being raped, to talking to a neighbour, to going out in public unaccompanied by a male relative. Splashing acid in the woman's face is also a common punnishment, sometimes preffered because it scars and leaves a 'mark of shame'. All states now have legislation against 'honour killings', since Amnesty International began a movement the culminated in the creation of the International Convention on Discrimination against Women in all it's Forms. Something that should be understood here is that 'honour killings' is not a cultural or social norm anywhere, but violence against women is a social norm everywhere. One in every three women in the world will be physically or sexually abused in her lifetime. Many countries still have no legislation against domestic violence and rape within marriage, and many more have inadequate legislation that makes life very dangerous for women. However, combating gender violence is about more than just changing legislation, it's about changing the attitudes that allow it to proliferate. For more information, or to join the campaign to 'Stop Violence Against Women', go to the following web page: http://web.amnesty.org/actforwomen/index-eng
