'Holding the Ball' - redirecting and counter-acting

Discussion in 'Tai chi' started by Dan Bian, Dec 29, 2013.

  1. Dan Bian

    Dan Bian Neither Dan, nor Brian

    In this mornings class, I was talking about redirecting an opponents force and we ended up looking at the 'transitional' movement of 'holding the ball', and how the simultaneous redirecting of the attack leads into a counter-attack, of applying shoulder-stroke against the opponents elbow..

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mcP9WFthOi4"]Applied Tai Chi Principle - YouTube[/ame]

    Just thought I'd share.. :)
     
  2. runcai

    runcai Valued Member

    Applications of parting wild horse's mane::


    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6fEE4-484iE"]Parting Wild Horses Mane - YouTube[/ame]


    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YMoyLRbnqd8"]Parting Wild Horses Mane V.S. Cloud Hands - YouTube[/ame]
     
  3. ned

    ned Valued Member

    Thanks DB,nice clip that demonstates the subtle body mechanics of part the wild
    horses mane.I love the locks/throws in chen that use the turning of the ball,
    found this guy (lineage from Chen Yu)who shows it well


    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6JXbsmtPpLE"]Marin Spivack Chen Taijiquan Form/Method 2012 # 5 Tuishou Variations - YouTube[/ame]

    [ame]http://watch.youtube.com/watch?v=zGRXaYbUCs4[/ame]
     
  4. runcai

    runcai Valued Member

    With the introduction of elbow techniques, now BD can go on with his encounter with the shoulder technique of Yang style. These are just demonstrations but I still don't think it is a good idea in letting the other arm free without any preventive measure.
     
  5. aaradia

    aaradia Choy Li Fut and Yang Tai Chi Chuan Student Moderator Supporter

     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2013
  6. Dan Bian

    Dan Bian Neither Dan, nor Brian

    Hi Aaradia,
    I agree with your comments re: the Aiki-guy. I personally don't think he has any business discussing Taiji work, when he would appear to have no practical experience of Taijiquan, and expresses in his clip that he is just going by what he has seen on videos.

    The second clip, of the guy looking a ways of using 'Waving Hands' to neutralise PWHM, I thought was quite interesting in the theory, though I think it may fall apart in a more 'free-play' scenario. Something I'll have to play with myself!

    In my original clip, one of my guys was having trouble with the shape of the transitional movement between 'lifting hands' and the first 'ward off' posture:

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I16iJoQng-E"]First movements of the form Medway Tai Chi Society - YouTube[/ame]

    The first video was made to show that there is a purpose behind even the 'transitional' movements of the form, and that it shouldn't be thought of as move A, move B, move C - it is continuous movement, and can be taken apart and put back together in various different shapes and methods.

    The idea of the this particular 'holding the ball' is that of compression before expansion. Like putting pressure onto a spring and then releasing it. Absorbing the opponents force, and using it to disrupt his own structure (via way of the shoulder bump in concert with the drawing in of his punch), before making our own 'big' counter - which in this demonstration, referencing the form, was the 'ward off' posture, though could have been a number of ideas, such as 'Jade Maiden works Shuttle' for instance...
     
  7. Considered

    Considered New Member

    I love this stuff!

    ...any Tai Chi'ers near BD22, UK, wanna test/compare structures?
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2014
  8. runcai

    runcai Valued Member

    Hi aaradia, how do you differentiate between parting the horse's mane and diagonal flying?
     
  9. Dan Bian

    Dan Bian Neither Dan, nor Brian

    To me, the difference between whm and diagonal flying is in the waist turn. PWHM uses a forward turn of the waist, whereas diagonal uses a reverse turn, resulting in a different effect.
     
  10. embra

    embra Valued Member

    The AikiFudo geezer does not know jack about Aikido, never mind Taichi. The name 'AikiFudo' says it all.
     
  11. aaradia

    aaradia Choy Li Fut and Yang Tai Chi Chuan Student Moderator Supporter

    If you are referring to what my school calls slantingly flying, which I think you are, it is about where you turn from. Otherwise the mechanics are pretty much the same. You do the same move, but it is a bit different because of how you first step into it- I.E. the direction change.

    PTWHM is stepping in the same direction- moving forward from the beginning. Slantingly Flying is changing direction and doing the move. It can be 90%, like in the 40 form, or 45%, like several times in the 108 long form.
     
  12. aaradia

    aaradia Choy Li Fut and Yang Tai Chi Chuan Student Moderator Supporter

    Lol! I don't know enough about Aikido to have a say in that.

    I was annoyed enough that I ended up giving a short version of what I wrote here on the youtube site. I politely asked the guy to stop misrepresenting TCC. I rarely comment on youtube sites.
     
  13. aaradia

    aaradia Choy Li Fut and Yang Tai Chi Chuan Student Moderator Supporter

    I have to go back and rewatch that. All I could think of when watching the second clip was "at least they are doing PTWHM correctly in this clip!" Aikido guy needs to see that clip to have a better idea of the move as it is intended to look structurally and in application.

    Yes, I myself need to contemplate and work on this more. I tend to fall into the primary drills my school uses for moves and not get more imaginative and think about other applications. This is my fault entirely as our instructors encourage thinking about more applications and transitions.

    Aw well, there is always something more to work on, isn't there? What you say here is a good reminder of this for me.
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2014
  14. Dan Bian

    Dan Bian Neither Dan, nor Brian

    I honestly think that the 'transitional' movements are the real basis of taijiquan fighting skill, not the major postures.

    It seems to be the transitions that deal with a lot of the bridging/connecting skills, as well as the neutralising skills etc. The 'hidden in plain sight' knowledge, if you like...
     
  15. aaradia

    aaradia Choy Li Fut and Yang Tai Chi Chuan Student Moderator Supporter

    I am going to respectfully disagree with the implied "more" in this statement. Or when you say the "real basis" and "not" the major postures.

    Everything is important. Transitions mean nothing without understanding what you are transitioning into-i.e. the major postures.

    I was taught that the old school teachers in the past made you hold postures before ever teaching you a form.

    I am not disagreeing with the importance of transitions or the value of them as you state it. Which is why I said this is a good reminder for me to think about them more. Particularly for me, working on them in different sequences than I am used to from the forms.

    Just the value of this part of training over others.

    Everything is important. And should be worked on in balance with other aspects of training IMO.:)
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2014
  16. ned

    ned Valued Member


    Hence the importance of push hands/tui shou,which enable the development of the sensitivity needed to respond to changes as they occur and the flexibility to adapt to regain the upper hand.
    Often the difference between success and failure of a technique is a very slight
    change in posture/stance particulaly when you are redirecting an incoming force.
     
  17. Dan Bian

    Dan Bian Neither Dan, nor Brian

    I agree that, foundationally, the postures of the form are important, however there is sometimes the risk of them becoming a 'prison of the mind' - how many times have we seen a video of someone trying to force an application of a technique, exactly as it appears in the form? Transitions, being much more fluid in their nature, rather than a fixed "this is it", offer themselves as more of a living method.
    Just my thoughts..

    Posture holding is still a major part of training from two of the teachers that I learnt from, and it's something that I work on with my guys now.
     
  18. runcai

    runcai Valued Member

    This one is Tai Chi Diagonal Flying in Shuaijiao:

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wLZmH9jR5eo"]太極拳斜飛勢應用2 Application of Tai Chi Diagonal Flying in Shuai Jiao管腿2 - YouTube[/ame]

    It might be a similar technique to Diagonal Flying instead of a Shuaijiiao interpretation of a Tai Chi move.
     
  19. aaradia

    aaradia Choy Li Fut and Yang Tai Chi Chuan Student Moderator Supporter

    Probably. I wouldn't know as I admit I didn't even know what Shuaijiao was. I had to google it. :eek:

    That youtube you posted would be more similar to Parting the Wild Horses Mane than slantingly flying, as he is stepping forward - not changing direction. At least the way I am taught.

    It has way more similarities to Parting the Wild Horses Mane than that Aikido Dude's interpretation of the move IMO.
     
  20. runcai

    runcai Valued Member

    Well, the concern is the holding the ball posture. I just through BD is trying to show from this posture transit into the PWHM that is all. One certainly can transit from PWHM to SF via holding the ball posture but HB is not a defensive posture. May BD wants to argue that it is
     

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