I've been thinking about Hoe Jeon Soo Do for a while now. I was wondering what other peoples thoughts on this motion are. It is a signature motion in Kuk Sool forms in the sense that it shows up in almost all empty hand forms up to 4th degree. Why is this? KSN obviously feels it is important otherwise it would not show up so often. Is it a technique? Is it a principle?
I don't have an answer, but I'd like to add to this. Another signature move is inside kicks, or more specifically the jump spin inside kick (think Ki Cho Hyung part 6). Same questions... why there? What's so important about it? technique? principle?
With regards to the Hae Jun Pseudo, I think the principle is very much like that of Lap Sao from Wing Chung.......block- block- strike. So its kinda like combination blocking with a strike at the end!
Yeah, most people running through it do it kind of lazily and it ends up looking like a conga line dance hand tumble, but it should be two inward circular blocks followed by a strike.
What does the motion say about protecting the centerline of the body? What is the key to generalizing this idea into other (posibly more practical) motions? Block, Block, strike is certainly a good paradigm, but if that was it then why would it show up in so many forms? Why not a different pattern of blocking and striking?
No, this is just an example of a different interpretation of a motion as the Won and the Kwan have divereged. Judging from videos I have seen this divergence must have happened very early, because our version of the technique has not changed as far back as at least the early seventies. I have never seen how the Kwan version looks so I can't comment on that.
I'd have to see the inside circular block before I could comment. Our blocking hands stay on the centerline.
KJN has said that hyung is abstract, not necessarily to be interpreted in terms of combat. And Kuk Sa Nim has talked in seminar about hyung teaching balance. So while in application, I'd agree that the hae jun soo do is blocking and striking, I'm thinking hyung may be about other physical effects. I'm sort of shooting in the dark here, I could easily be wrong on the rest of this post, but COC's question got me thinking about something PSBN David said this spring about the inside kicks, that might relate back. You know we hold our hand out like a target when we do those kicks. PSBN indicated that the hand was held out in order to contact a pressure point on the foot. I'm wondering if perhaps that pressure point might be why the kick shows up in nearly all our hyung. Moving from that idea back to the hajen soo do, I'm thinking about how the soo do ends, with the left hand supporting the elbow. Hwarang_cl mentioned earlier how the hand & knee positions in the Baek Pahl Ki Hyung toe kicks were for ki alignment... I'm wondering if perhaps the hajen soo do's are a similar idea, something relating to ki. Comments are welcome.
Hi Ember, protecting the body is a very good notion. One reason, we put the hand under the elbow to protect ourselves from hyperextending our elbow. If you were to hit something it would not be necessary to have the hand there.
I've always thought of it two ways block, block, strike being one, the other is to get through someones guard quickly, deliver a strike, and get out quick. I would usually pair this with a lunge step and then a lunge back. It seemed pretty fast I think.
hwae jeon soo doh hwae jeon soo doh is for shoulder training actually. Do enough of them and see what muscles get tired. All hand motions rely on the shoulders, staff and sword too. inside kick is for the back, I know, I have a bad back.
AI think it depends on how you interpret KS, it the art a training tool for fighting or is it preventive maintenance, and a by product of that is learning how to defend oneself.
I don't feel like I'm knowledgeable enough about the art to offer an answer that involves "ki", but I've used the spinning/trapping motion with a backfist when I was crashing in on an opponent while sparring. Here's a question for you... Does the circle created by the spinning hands stay the same diameter, or does it shrink as it's executed, increasing the angular acceleration? I tend to find mine shrinks as I cover under the elbow, but I don't guess I've ever asked anyone before...
True, but perhaps I should rephrase. I know I mentioned the hand at elbow, but you asked about the entire motion, and that's just the end. Many of the things I associate with "ki" are psychological => emotional controls. (Ataxia, please keep me honest! I am not a psychologist.) I seem to recall some high school students who studied psychology discussing effects like how difficult it is to frown when your hands are over your head. (Posture also affects mood.) I'm wondering if the blocks / hand rolls might affect the mind in a similar way. I guess for me, it can remind me of the hand motions for some song. And Jsun- my circles tend to get smaller on the motion too. I don't know if it's right, it's just what I do.
When you get through their guard what is the pattern of your hands? Do this sound like what you do? Start with both hands on the centerline, one hand in front of the other. Front hand grabs and/or push/pulls through one of the defender's arms. The back hand is simultaniously moved to be the front hand. Then the original front hand strikes. This is essentially the generalization of the idea behind the motion. An example can made from Maek Chi Gi #5. Start with both hands on centerline, right hand in front. When the right hand blocks the kick the left hand takes its place. The left hand is then drawn back to deflect the punch, while the right hand goes straight from blocking the kick up to the neck. Notice that the "circular" motion of the hands is different but the concept is really the same.
It works the shoulder in a similar way that power hands works the shoulder, i.e. it is a secondary effect. I totally agree with you that if for training. I think it is for training the elbow joint to move freely. If you look at yourself in the mirror your elbow is really not moving all that much. I would like to tie this in with what Ember said as well. If you tense you can't do this motion quickly. If you try hard you will be emotionally tense that will show itself in this motion as you will look like you are trying to force your way through it. By keeping this motion in all of our forms it forces to continue praciticing it so that we can rid of all this tension.
That is a very good question. Unfortunately the answer is, it depends. In the way I think you are using it then yes. Here is another way to think about it. The first hand has error associated with it, i.e. it does know exactly where the opponents arm is, the second hand has less error because you in contact with the opponnent. Therefore the circle can be tighter. A tighter circle is faster and hence quicker to lead to the counter strike. Later on you will learn techniques that utilize the ability to quickly rotate the elbow joint. It is not Hoe Jeon Soo Do but similar. In some cases the circle will remain tight whereas in others it will explode into a large circle.
Yea, that is exactly what I was talking about. I used to finish with Maek Chi Gi #6 in sparring matches and score fast points if I need them
