Hello all, Question here, do you mean eclectic in the sense that a wide variety of techniques are taught? Most martial arts that are called eclectic are drawn from a variety of different arts and styles, this is not the case of Hapkido which is drawn from the singular material (Daito-ryu) brought back from Japan by Choi, Yong Sul. In addition, I have to agree with Stuart, one cannot really "spar" in Hapkido - as a defensive art, we search for the weakness in attack - therefore two Hapkidoin "sparring" together should in essense not move at all - thus creating no holes in defense to exploit. Also, on the thread of kicking, it is virtually impossible to "spar" using Hapkido kicking, traditional that is, becasue it is aimed at damaging the lower part of the body, it would be hard to "pull" a knee breaking kick...
In schools that do not practice "sparring" or "free fighting"... what are some techniques you use to practice your skills against live, resisting opponents?
Hello Thomas, Not to sound stupid here, but we use live, resisting opponents...full resistance to technique, combined with (as people progress in confidence) full speed punching.
It wasn't meant as a dig. I assume that Hapkido schools practice their locks and such with resistance (or else, it may not work for real) As I mentioned earlier, we use sparring sometimes as a way to integrate footwork, breathing, range, setups, and techniques while under the pressure of someone trying to do the same thing back to us. Without using free fighting for this, what are some techniques that you use to do this? (I am always on the lookout for new stuff (drills, etc.) to do in class)
when i say hapkido is eclectic i mean; a. the base techniques that make up hapkido are varied and address all ranges of fighting. b. the schools and different lineages that teach hapkido all seem to teach different versions of the art that tend to reflect the instructor's personal skill set and views. c. i personally have been taught hapkido is a living breathing martial art that is should grow and change to stay relevant and effective. now this said i can see the benefits of other teachers practitioners staying true to its roots. and feel it is up to the person to decide for themselves what works for them.
Hello Thomas, I look at this issue from several angles. If I am working with a group on "technical" aspects of the art, we will have the attacker throw a technique from a "group" of techniques, like punching, kicking, throw attempt, etc. - the defender then reacts to the attack - this is of course a bit set up and used for lower or intermediate ranks. For higher ranks, we use a similar idea, except the technique is unknown to the defender - but below 2nd dan, students focus on more "common" street fighting tactics - punching, grabbing, takedown attempts. The initial attack is subdued, and generally I then like to have the process go into "slow motion" at first so that the defenders response will not injure the attacker. To facilitate multiple attackers or an unknown approach (eg - "not the guy in front of you") I rely on a simple eight person circle with the defender in the middle - a number is called (between 1 and 8), that attacker goes and the defender must turn and subdue. For higher ranks, this process is reduced to start wtih only four attackers that attack randomly, or in pairs. Eventually, this is taken up to six attackers, where the defender is allowed to "move" the circle to cover his back - but still has to contend with up to two people at a time. (This can get a little rough some times - so the action often has to be heavily supervised and slowed down). This is stuff focused on providing some real world contact - and is based largely on my 15+ year experience working bars and clubs and seeing far too often how these types of fights develope.
Thanks... I like the circle idea. We do basically the same type of stuff but you've given me some ideas for variations. Nice post!
Greetings, I'm personally very sad to hear comments like Hapkido is eclectic. Unfortunately this is what many people think Hapkido is when in fact it's NOT. Hapkido is Daito Ryu and from Ji Han Jae's line Korean Kicking was incorporated and has become an accepted Tradition. All of these other off shoot systems may indeed have elements of Hapkido but for the most part have deviated from the essence making it a different Art. Right Kevin? You guys who think Hapkido should have sport sparring have not trainned with anyone who can show you why it's not necessary and won't really make a difference in a real self defense situation even against multiple attackers
Live and let live. There are a lot of people out and around doing various styles of Hapkido and very few (if any) who do it exactly the way it began. For that matter, some consider the added kicking (of Ji Han-jae's contribution) to be a corruption of "true" Hapkido. In my opinion, there is no one "true" Hapkido out there. From my perspective, I would rather see a whole bunch of people learning elements of Hapkido and growing and sharing instead of one uniform school where evolution and change is not allowed. There are also many ways of teaching the concepts of Hapkido and these also vary. The various kwans found in Korea and around the world are all valid schools of Hapkido with different variations and ways of doing things. Implying that they are less because they are different is not valid in my opinion. My advice: Be proud and happy with what you do and stay loyal to your particular faction... but also get out and see what others do and share your ideas with them at the same time as you learn from them. If we fall into the "my art is more pure than your art" routine, it will only lead to stagnation and a loss of resources to grow and learn. Better to spread the ideas and techniques instead of just saying "what you are doing is wrong".
Dear Thomas. I think we went down this road before and got nowhere fast. I guess it's the old liberal vs. conservetive debate. That's all I'm saying they call what they do Hapkido, changed added, subtracted, modified, etc but never mastered the Original System. BTW Ji added kicking he didn't take away the or change what Choi Young Sool did there's a hugh difference if you think about it.
Hello Stuart, You know I am with you here. The Choi line only has 10 or so kicks, the Ji line I believe starts with a basic number of 25 (right?). Not to put to fine a point on it but the reason that no one wants a single lineage is that financial losses are at stake - take away people's ability to say they have rank and the profits disappear as the student base dries up... As much as I believe that Thomas has the best interests of people at heart, and he clearly does, the roots of what all these people call Hapkido and other arts suddenly pop up around Taegu Korea after 1947 - with no documented exception. People in Soeul started after the arrival of Ji and a few others like Kim, Moo Oung (the man credited with assisting Ji add more kicks to the Choi material). The road backward however stops at Ji for most, then Choi for an even smaller number. Before that, there is simply no documented evidence that anyone else was teaching what Choi taught. Not trying to be an elitist here, but it would help all these other "kwans" if they had some type of documentation that indicated learning from any source (not self made) other than a Ji, Choi line. For me, the proof was in the training - what I learned in the UK, from Fred Adams was taught to him by a man that claimed that Choi was the founder of Hapkido and said little else about it, 25 years later, training with Choi's longest training student and one three ninth dans promoted by Choi himself, Grandmaster Lim, Hyun Soo, I saw the same techniques in the same order - I needed little more convincing that Choi was infact the founder.
Hello Stuart, Compared to what others did, this statement is very important. Back to the thread topic, one of the real differences that I have seen between Hapkido and Taekwondo kicking is the high degree of support foot pivot from Hapkido people, where Taekwondo (as I have seen it, mainly ITF - old ITF) people seem not to turn the supporting foot and use more of a Japanese "Shotokan looking" (for comparison only) snapping approach to kicking.
Hello Stuart, Here is a list of the original 10 kicks: * Kicking the lower ankle. - Ha dan pal chagi * Kicking the groin 1. - Nang shim chagi * Kicking the groin 2. - Nang shim chagi * Kicking the knee joint with the side foot knife - Yop chagi * Kicking the knee joint with the front foot knife. - Cutting kick * Kicking the femoral part downward. - Inside to outside heel kick * Winding the spine and kicking. - Heel to back of leg or spine * Spinning and kicking the leg joint. - Spin back or side kick to knee * Kicking the chin. - Up chagi * Kicking backward with the rear foot. - Middle knuckle, back side kick Photos of these kicks can be seen at: www.jungkikwan.com now, I'd give you a diredt link if I could, but not my bag, so...go to English side and click Hapkido button in upper left of screen, kick pictures then appear at bottom of page... Hope that helps.
Hello Stuart, For those that may not have seen them, could you provide a list of the basic (25, right) kicks of the GM Ji curriculum?
1.Shin kick To opponents shin Rear heel snaps forward to the opponent's leg: hips assist thrusting into the kick 2. Mid level forward blade kick Diagonally to inner thigh The blade of the foot with the toes pointed up thrusts diagonally forward into the opponents inner thigh 3. Heel hook kick Outside of opponents thigh In an inward circular motion the heel is brought sharply against the outer muscles of the opponents thigh 4. Low side kick To the knee After a high tuck the blade of the foot snaps down into the knee. 5. Inside crescent kick To deflect punch In a circular motion the foot swings away from the body. Then strikes inward to the target area. 6. Outside crescent kick To deflect punch In a circular motion, the foot swings inward then strikes outward to the target area. 7.Roundhouse To neck area The bone above the instep strikes the neck or temple area of the head. 8. High heel straight kick Under the chin Extended heel is lifted beneath the chin, similar to front kick. 9. Axe kick Against mid -level kicks In a circular motion the foot swings inward, then directly above the target area then in a continued motion, it whips down into the target area. (upper mid-thigh) 10. Push kick Thrusting heel kick To chest (Solar Plexus) After a high tuck, the extended heel snaps forward into solar plexus 11. Grand circular blade kick To the legs of many opponents Like a wide sweeping inside crescent directed at the shins or knees of many opponents 12. Kick block with blade To the inside of attacking leg Like a tight outside crescent, the blade is directed against the blade of the attacking leg, the block continues with sudden downward pressure 13. Straight high kick To the middle of the body Kick attempts to drive blade of foot up the entire length of the opponents torso. 14.Straight thrusting high kick To the head and chest Kick thrusts first into the head then snaps downward in the chest 15. Outside low cutting crescent To the shin Quick low outside Crescent to opponent extended shin 16. Straight rising kick Beneath kicking leg Stepping to the outside of the opponent kick. Bring the rear knee forward and then suddenly lift your heel into the attacking leg. 17. Back kick To chest or head After a high tuck drive the heel backwards into the opponent, who is behind you. 18. Reverse circular blade kick To shin Whipping the blade to cut at the shins of an opponent to the rear. The upper body follows the kick to face the opponent. ( kicking to your rear) 19. Hand assisted knee strike To head or chest After grabbing the opponent by the shirt or head snatch downward while striking upward with the knee 20. Knee thrust To chest After an advancing step, drive the knee of the rear leg forward into the chest. Hips thrust forward to add power and extend the knee. 21. Side knee Strike To attacking knee After high tuck, drive knee downward to target area in a side kicking motion. Be sure to keep foot of kicking leg tucked. 22 Outside circular heel kick To attacking knee Tight outside circular kick with the heel to the opponent's extended knee 23. Lateral roundhouse To face or chest After Tuck striking laterally to the opponent at one's side (Like the reverse round house kick or slap kick) 24. Rising Blade Block Beneath side kick Stepping to either the inside or outside of the opponent's side kick, bring the rear knee forward then lift the blade of the foot into the extended leg 25. Passing heel Hook Kick To opponents back Pull opponent towards you to expose his back. Shift your leg to his outside as his momentum carries him past you, and in a circular movement, extend the leg closest to your opponent behind him then drive the heel into the lower spine, head or kidney area.
thanks Iron Ox thanks American HKD I am feeling mighty lucky at the moment thank you both again for the informative posts . When I first started reading this thread I thought " ok this is gonna be pretty simple cut and dry ". Then we got into "HKD kicking is not HKD kicking" and I thought "oh poop this is going to get messy " now I am happy to say I am just as not confused as I was at the begaining and more than likely a little more enlightend ... American HKD The 25 different GM Ji Hapkido kicks are not TKD kicks with varing targets and points of impact on the foot (leg) as people who feel a kick is just a kick imply . Its nice to see it spelled out thanks I will be linking people to this one alot . Iron Ox Thank you for the link I enjoyed the info and pics . I am glad to see we have a reliable source for traditional The Choi line Hapkido to point out that The ten different CHoi line Hapkido kicks are not TKD kicks with varing targets and points of impact on the foot (leg) as people who feel a kick is just a kick imply. But do the targets vary some on those ten kicks or does it turn it into a different kick ? ( sorry to sound like newbie I am sure you hear it alot but ITS JUST TEN KICKS !!!! ) Have you ever felt as if traditional Choi line Hapkido was not what you needed in a dangerous/scary/selfdefense/sparing/war/happyplayfull/whatever situation ? I know NO style is perfect but it seems that hapkido seems to bat a little higher on the "wow that works !" scale than other M.A. when it comes to self defense and specificly leg techniques ( kicks sweeps ect) . I know noone who follows the Choi line to ask or show me so I could find out myself . I predict it will be fine and the Choi line bats as high if not higher becouse of what seems to be ( on the surfice ) a more direct and less complex system of engagement . I hope this isnt to off topic ... Train hard Be well :love: BackFistMonkey
Dear Master Rosenberg, You are absolutely correct and I was a bit harsh in my post. I wrote it quickly as I was out the door to go to a seminar with GM In Sun Seo (and hosted by GM Serge Baubil). I had a great time at the seminar (and will do a journal write-up) but kept thinking about the post I left for you. I'm glad you only gave me a gentle reminder instead of a stronger (and justified rebuke). We have been over this before and I should take my own advice to ignore the parts I don't agree with and learn from what you (and everyone else) post(s). Moo Sool -Thomas
