HKD kicking vs. TKD kicking

Discussion in 'Hapkido' started by BSR, Mar 7, 2004.

  1. BSR

    BSR Valued Member

    This subject has been touched upon before in different threads, but since I was interested in discussing it in particular, I decided to make a new thread just for this topic.

    From what I have read from various other posters (sorry, I can't remember names), a basic difference between traditional HKD kicking and TKD kicking seems to be how the kicks are executed. Taking a simple roundhouse/snap kick for example, TKD seems to rely more on the snapping motion that comes from the knee, whereas Hapkido relies more on rolling the hips and trying to put the weight of the body behind the kick.

    This theory matches my own experience. When I studied TKD, my instructors listened for the uniform to make an actual snapping sound to know if I was doing my kicks correctly. In Hapkido, I am taught more to swing my hips around, we are still taught to snap the leg, but not near as dramatically as in TKD. Another difference I have experienced are crescent kicks. If I remember my TKD experience correctly, we were taught to have our legs pretty much straight. In Hapkido, my instructor tells us to keep our legs slightly bent while doing crescent kicks.

    I guess the whole point of this is that I'm wondering where this difference originated since I had thought that both TKD and HKD were influenced by the same early Korean martial art, tae kyon. In Hapkido, I believe it was Ji Han Jae who was mainly responsible for bringing the kicking aspects into the art. Was he the one who decided to make HKD kicking different than TKD kicking?

    This is a chance for the board's MA historians to flaunt their knowledge. ;)
     
  2. mountainsage

    mountainsage New Member

    Thought

    I have no historical knowledge of the subject, yet I would sumize that the difference has to do with the sport aspect of TKD. A quick snapping kick is needed to win in sport, but a hard power kick is needed to put down an attacker. I also read at one point that traditional HKD didn't have any kicks. just sweeps.

    Mountainsage
     
  3. tomek

    tomek New Member

    there was a difference between chop kick (snapping motion) and round kick. In fact I was taught dollye in old hrd way, all the way around. Snapping was called chop kick.
     
  4. moogong

    moogong Valued Member

    It really depends on what organization of hapkido you refer too. Often times it is a matter of body/spine alignment. From what my friends in Sin Moo Hapkido explain to me, kicks should be done with the leg and spine in a straight line rather than a the back being straight up. I have seen other non Sin Moo schools follow this method also. If you notice, many Olympic TKD schools do this also but for a different reason. It is done so the point scoring target will be out of range when you throw your kick. However, in more self defense oriented TKD schools (and some hapkido) when you kick, you keep your back straight up..which is better for keeping balance. Also with this, if you kick is caught, being closer to the opponent for a jab to the face or other escaping technique is easier.
    That's just my understanding though...maybe somebody else can paint you a different picture.
     
  5. Hapkido

    Hapkido New Member

    the main difference ive noticed in kicking is the whole use of a kick. in my TKD experience its been more of a knock em down cause serious pain on the target. we havent gotten too deep into kicking so far we've learned basic stuff like sweep kicks and hook kicks used to knock people off balance used in combination with one of our breaking techniques. they seem to be less based on pure damage as they are used to aid in the total defeat of a person.
     
  6. Guy Mendiola

    Guy Mendiola New Member

    I think in Hapkido they work on more of hip twisting when doing roundhouses and in TKD also but in Olympic sparring there are quick snapping out's.
     
  7. shadow warrior

    shadow warrior Valued Member

    TKD vs HKD Kicking!

    Posted a few times in this reguard before: Most North American Hapkido players kick in fact kick exclusively with TKD mechanics. They use the quad muscles of the leg to 'pick up' their legs, canting the knee and snap the lower part (knee down) to finish! Hapkido kicking is taken from TaeKKyon, a form of Korean folk game. The practitiioner lifts their leg for kicks such as say round, side and front using a combination of hip flexers, lateral oblqiues, weigh transfer and a tossing motion to throw their foot at the target. Unlike TKD kicking, Hapkido kicks unfold from 'natural bend", (no artificial over canting, sometimes leading to the incorrect description 'straight leg' kicking). In addition, this method is free of tension in the leg until a momentary very short finish (contact), followed by hip turning and/or release. At this point the foot usually rebounds off the target like a rubber ball releasing its energy into a wall. Making a second kick possible.

    There are MANY other contrasts with numerous other kicks.

    A few 2nd generation Korean Masters have taught this method to their students ,but it time consuming and difficult to develop.

    Today perhaps less than 20% of Hapkido students have even been exposed to these theories of kicking! Most Hapkido instructors today are retreaded Tae Kwon Do people who have learned a few joint locks.
     
  8. totalkayos

    totalkayos Valued Member

    personally in my tkd school i have been taught to roll the whole hip and put as much of my bidy weight behind te kick as i can, espically in a round (house) kick. even with out front kicks and side kicks we are taught to use the hip for power. just my 2 cents.
     
  9. evilkingston

    evilkingston 필요악

    i practise both hkd & tkd and these are some differences i discovered:
    - hkd has lowkicks (this is not accepted in WTF-tkd-competition)
    - hkd has legsweeps
    - hkd has all the kicks tkd has, but also variations with the side of the foot (pushing the outer side of the foot towards the opponent as a blade
    - hkd has kneekicks
    - hkd has followthrough kicks (but certainly not all of them are followed through)
    - hkd usses many jumped kicks, but not all of them are as effective (also a lot for demo use, like capoeira)

    i'm sure there are more specific differences, but this is all i've come up with now... grtz
     
  10. TkdWarrior

    TkdWarrior Valued Member

    I think I do not need to read anything else beyond that...

    that does not happen in ITF TKD. the proper kick expects you to put power behind ur kcik from waist. the laws of kicking is explained thoroughly to every student...

    nuff said..
    -TkdWarrior-
     
  11. Taliar

    Taliar Train harder!

    Edge of Foot

    EvilKingson. The outer edge of the kicking foot is used alot in ITF TKD. The specific area is the inch & 1/2 infront of the heel. This is called the footsword - Balkal in korean.

    Is this kicking tool not used in wtf style?
     
  12. evilkingston

    evilkingston 필요악

    Taliar, i think it is, but i presume your toes aren't pointing up... when i talked about it in hkd, your toes are pointing upward and the inside of the foot is pulled towards you... do you have this in ITF aswell, becoz that's defenitely not trained (yet?) in my WTF-club :)
     
  13. American HKD

    American HKD New Member

    Greeting,

    I agree with the above explanation.

    As one who trained exclusively in the KHF and Sin Moo tradition this is a good explanation of the original HKD style.

    Also Ji Han Jae explains that keeping your body leaning downward when kicking rather than upright there's much less stress on the spine which may cause back problems at one point or another. This is important for people who kick high!
     
  14. Paratus

    Paratus aka Mr. Rue

    I've been told the main differences of hapkido and TKD kicks are that certain hapkido kicks execute more of a thrusting kick, rather than a snapping action. For example, pushing through with a front or side kick. I can't really make comparisons, I don't have any expirence in TKD and haven't seen much of it ;)
     
  15. American HKD

    American HKD New Member

    Greeting,

    Korean Hapkido generally has 25 basic kicks, some low, mid, and high line kicks.

    They have some thrust or pushing type kicks such as the front push kick where the power comes from the hips it's like a cops kicking in a door on TV. The knee is pull up high to the chest and the heel of the foot is thust foward into the target using the hips.

    Chambering the leg is much less important in HKD than TKD. I would say the HKD kicks are much more natural in execution, TKD tends to square off the kicks with alot of chambering.

    I was taught for a side & round kick only loosely bring up the knee until your foot is about the hight of the knee of the suporting leg then lean back as you execute a side or round type kick. You then focus all your energy into the target just before contact and return the leg in the same path.

    Hapkido kicks are all done with the entire body behind the kick ( using the hips ), however it's done in a relaxed manor which does'nt look to be strong but they're very powerful kicks.

    Also HKD kicks are ussually meant to be very precise aimed at Vital Points ( small targets ) using the toes, edge of the foot, heel, in a few differant positions to pin point the target.

    TKD being a hard style and will tend to hit anywhere relying more on power only to do the damage.
     
  16. Kosh

    Kosh New Member

    The Hapkido i learn is from a Korean master who in turn was taught by his dad, GM#2 Kim. We learn both types of kick. Snap and Swing (whatever you want to call them).
     
  17. shadow warrior

    shadow warrior Valued Member

    Kosh:

    Why would you ever employ 'snap kicking' after you learn a form of 'release' kicking??? It makes no sense in freefighting. Besides, it (snap mechanics) are a waste of training time and much harder on your knees.

    Anyone who has applied 'release' style kicking would never go back to the 'snap' mechanics..there are no advantages and it takes far too long to learn the feeling of natural 'release'. They are NOT compatable in theory, kenetics, physiology or effectiveness. IMHO.

    Keith Stewart
    Head Instructor
    East West Hapkido
     
  18. rtkd-badger

    rtkd-badger Fundimentaly Manipulated

    In my form of TKD we use the hips to get the power. I think you will find the difference is the TKD that adapts the fast snap kick using the knee will be more sport based where they are more interested in points. The true martial arts based TKD will go more for the power and proper technique.
     
  19. Kwajman

    Kwajman Penguin in paradise....

    Sounds like American HKD knows what he's talking about. I don't know much about it, but am interested in hearing more. Keep posting okay?
     
  20. MarioBro

    MarioBro Banned Banned

    At my dojo which is WTF-TKD, we are trained very specifically and equally the importance of both thrusting the hip out to lead the leg, then the knee naturally follows, and then once the knee is aimed at your target, the snap finishes the kick. The amount of power in the kick depends on the proper use of the hip, the proper lifting of the leg, pointing of the knee and the finishing snap. Even though my school is WTF, we do not train primarily for sport TKD, but rather adapt the training we have when it is needed for tournaments, etc., as there is not much point in delivering a bone crushing blow to someone wearing body protection as that will just tire you..thus speed then becomes the important factor.

    In general, it also depends on the action that will happen immediately after the kick. If following the kick you will drop your leg forward thus moving your stance forward, this will automatically increase the power you will generate since all momentum will be going forward. If after the kick you will be returning to your original fighting stance, then the power will be less since there will not be that natural follow through.

    I guess the idea here is that in any given challenge, you will have to adapt and learn which is more important and thus what technique would benefit you the most...a very fast snap which you will then return to the original position (are they not likely to back up much after the kick?) or will you follow through and back up your opponent thus allowing you to continue the forward motion and deliver even greater impacting kicks?

    I think there is alot more to it, and it depends on your particular dojo and the given situation as to what kind of a kick will be used and what will be more predominant...snap or body thrust.

    Note: All of the above is my humble opinion and any attacks or negative comments should be directed to the 'I don't wanna hear it' society...
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2004

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