"In 1954, Bok-Sub Suh was involved in an incident where he had to defend his father, Dong-Jin Suh, who was up for election to the National Assembly. A fight ensued against a few gangsters, and using kicks learned through his training in Yoo Sool, Suh defeated the gangsters. After some thought, Suh decided to suggest to Choi that the name Yoo Sool be changed to Yoo Kwon Sool, to represent the fact that besides joint locks and throwing techniques, they were also practicing strikes and kicks." If Bok-Sub Suh chooses to use kicks instead of the joint locks is totaly up to him. GM Choi never used kicks in his techniques and did not learn kicks from Takeda. GM Ji Han-Jae also like kicks. They come from a Korean art called TaeKyon. We also practice strikes and kicks to learn how to defend against them. We NEVER use them in a technique. You'll notice it says we practice strikes and kicks. It does not mean they are part of the Hapkiyoosool technique. You said, "I fear there is either a misunderstanding on my part" Let's go with this one. It makes everyone feel better. I may be new to this forum but, be careful who you offend. That little old homeless man could be a very rich man living in humility. There is a "new kid" on the block, it does not mean that you need to disrepect him on the first day. You can twist what the Bible says too, that I would not even think about.
Maybe I did misunderstand. I was not trying to offend but rather I saw that many of your postings seemed a bit "trollish"... talking about no kicks in Hapkido and talking about "pure" styles and such... usually found in trollish posts. I wrote my response to tell you, honored poster, that if you were (or are) not Master Allen then I will be watching in order that you don't post things under a false name with the intention of dishonoring him. That's my reason for posting. About the homeless man and rich man reference, I don't know what you mean... but I do know that humility, especially when talking about martial arts, is a valuable skill which EVERYONE can use.... whether white belt, 2 dan, or 5 dan. You may be a "new kid" on the block and I am truly sorry if my postings offend you, but the respect goes both ways. If you post topics that are very "my way is this... this is best... etc.", you will get some negative replies. That's why it's a discussion forum. I don't understand your comments about the bible... As for kicking in Hapkido... as far as I am concerned... based on what I have learned... there is kicking in Hapkido. If your style is different, good for you. Please share your experience and opinions with all of us. I, for one, will read your posts happily. Again, in closing, if I offended you, I apologize.
There are Kicks in Hapkido ok good, But what I believe Master Allen is trying to get across is that the kicks are not going to be used with techniques. Like the techniques don't involve locking someone up with a joint lock then kicking there upper torso while having them locked. Sure the kicks them selves can be used as offensive tools but Hapkido is and always should be a defensive art. You shouldn't just be going around trying to attack people. GM Myung Jae Nam and GM Jang Young-shil were good friends that is why they had the same patches International Hapkido federation. But the thing is that GM Myung Jae Nam believe that there were changes needed to be made and founded HanKido which is just fine because I'm sure he believes that the art is gonna grow and I'm sure it has thought it is a completely different martial art to Hapkido sure it implies Hapkido and from what I've seen of Hankido schools (not that all schools are like this) it looks more like Aikido with Kicks. I'm sure its just the schools that I have seen and not the art itself. Its all about who is passing down the tradition of the art. If they want the art to grow they must teach the student with full circle wholeness not half cresent halfness. By teaching all that you know when they are ready to know you will allow an art to grow cause you want your students to be better then you rather then having the art decline for being watered down with missing details. Thats why sometimes people believe they are learning what they think they should be learning in other schools when they are really learning what the instructor is dishing out to them. Then when they come to our school their thought output on what they have been learning in their other school has a drastic change in feeling for art. We've had people from Taekwondo, Goju Kenpo, Soobakdo, ICHF, Barretts Hapkido, etc... and they have never before seen how easy and unstreneous each technique should applied and it just blows their mind when they have studied in an art for 2-15years that they have never before learned how to do it our way. But like I said before. Its all about who you are learning from and weither they will devote their patients to you so you may be able to learn.
The history of Hapkido can become very clouded, especially when people naturally have different points of views and remember things differently. I believe that GM Choi and GM Ji should be recognized as cofounding the martial art. Gm Ji is responsible for the addition of the Ki and breathing exercises, kicking, many of the weapons techniques, and the name Hapkido. When the name was given to GM Choi as a gift he did not adopt the GM Ji's curriculum, and continued to teach yoo sool the same that he had been just calling it Hapkido. Know this, I am not trying to discredit GM Choi. Without him there would be no Hapkido, Hwa Rang Do, Kook Sool, etc. Furthermore if someone is practicing Hapkido the way that GM Choi taught it then I would assume that they are a very skilled martial artist. The same goes for a student that learns Hapkido the way GM Ji teaches it.
Sound like we are all on the right track. Thomas, I understand you. Thank You. By the way, who is your IHF instructor and your president/founder? There are several IHF. Just wondering. We have Been International Hapkido Federation under GM Jang, Young-Shil since the 1960's in Korea. To all, There are many different styles of Hapkido. There many styles of handwriting. Personal style comes out of an instructor when he or she teaches. That is how we know an instructors personality just like reading handwriting. We know from the way they make their letters or perform the technique. We do teach the SAME way GM Choi teaches. It is very difficult to teach this way in the US. You need a lot of patience. All of my students are extremely dedicated and have great integrity. They invited me to this forum. If at any time they seem a little over zealous, I aplogize for them in advance. :love: Thank You all for your contributions to the art in your own way.
Re: Sound like we are all on the right track. I like that quote very much and agree firmly. I trained in Nonsan City in Chungchongnamdo under Master Choi Hyeon-kyu. Our federation is the International Hapkido Federation and the President was (while I was there) GM Jae-Nam Myong. I also studied Hankido under the same master. I also studied Korean Guards Martial Arts (Han Gook Kyeong Ho Moo Sool) and was rank certified under Association President Ki Sang Kim. I was also formally recognized for my contributions to the Korea Guards Martial Arts by Association Presdient Ki Sang Kim. Looking forward to your future postings. (By the way, I wish you success with your upcoming seminar... I wish I could attend.)
Many ways of Hapkido. I have had significant exposure to more than a half dozen 2nd generation Hapkido Masters and Grandmasters. Most of these were direct students of Master Choi himself, to a greater or lesser degree. The key to developing diversified skill sets which can be applied to Hapkido free fighting is simple..train with as many 2nd generation masters who will fight with you and help you as possible. Hapkido is a living breathing martial art, not a set of robotic motions. To live this you must not ignore any sets of techniques which can kill you..in this case kicking.. Whether you can say a technique in Korean or not does not make it more or less effective..real life experience is only test..
ok... i understand your post! but my master is not like what you just said. in fact my master is prolly one of the bests! seriously no lie. my master teaches hap ki do and tae kwon do also, he is a first dan judo black belt. my master is 6th degree in tkd and 5th degree in hapkido. my dad takes hap ki do at the place where i attend my tkd lessons and there kicks are way different from our kicks and also they use don jon breathing which we tkd students do not use. my master also attended the yongin university in korea! so my master is not no fake!
HKD with a TKD mind I would like to first say that I am not being biased because I have only studied Hapkido all my life. These are facts. You CANNOT teach Hapkido with a Taekwondo mind. If this offends people, I do not apologize. Try teaching Aikido with a Karate mind. Cannot be done. Apples and oranges cannot be compared. They are different. Ever try to eat American food cooked by Koreans? It's just not right. The taste is not correct or the ingredients are not right. I don't eat Korean food made by Americans. Same, Same. Growing up in Korea, I have eaten at OUTBACK STEAKHOUSE. TGI Fridays, Applebee's, and Chili's in Dowtown Seoul. It isn't the same as here in the US. Even the Walmart isn't the same. My wife gave up on trying to cook American food. It always came out, wierd. Even she wouldn't eat it. The meaning of "DO" in Hap-ki-do and Tae-kwon-do means "The Way" You CANNOT travel down two roads at once. You pick one path and follow it where ever it leads, sometimes you stumble and fall. You get back up and keep going. The easy path is not going to make you stronger. Straight and Narrow. One heart, One mind, One Body, One Way. Maybe I am a fool for being loyal to my instructor. I have been called stupid because I do not believe in cross training in other arts. That is how I was taught. Loyalty to my instructor and my style. I have many students in my school who come from other styles. I ask them why they left their previous school. They all have the same answer. "I wasn't getting what I wanted out of the training." What makes them think that the grass is greener on the other side of the fence? If you take care of your own yard and give it your 100% attention and dedication, you will have the greenest yard anywhere. You won't have time to look else where. Granted, there are some con-artist martial arts schools out there. Professional fakes, they are out there! Look at this!!! PROVERB: "A double minded man is unstable in all he does." I have ranted enough. Take it as you wish, I don't sugar coat anything. Truth is a jagged little pill. It makes you more aware of your real world.
"What makes them think that the grass is greener on the other side of the fence? If you take care of your own yard and give it your 100% attention and dedication, you will have the greenest yard anywhere" nice speech hapkiyoosool
Sincerity is usually not the problem with junior students. They will often train hard at Macdojangs not knowing they are being scammed!! The most difficult decision for a student of Hapkido then becomes; Which lawn is WORTH watering?? For what it's worth, NO HARDCORE Hapkido instructor I know teaches TKD in the same school..This includes more than a half dozen direct 2nd generation Hapkido Masters. My second instructor often told the few senior Black Belts in his school: "Beware then the two faced person as their mind is divided."
On the other hand... I think it really depends what a student is looking for, what their goals are. If you are attempting to pursue as pure a style as possible, then some of the warnings here are very good. If you are trying to learn effective martial arts and have no qualms about cross training and learning information from various sources, then it doesn¡¯t matter so much what style or styles a school teaches, but rather how effective they are. I have trained in Traditional Hapkido and enjoyed it. I have also trained in Taekwondo and enjoyed it. I also train in Combat Hapkido, a system which is NOT traditional Hapkido but advocates heavy cross training. My goal is to be an efficient martial artist. If you find a good instructor, then you shouldn¡¯t have to worry so much about whether your style is ¡°pure¡± or not, and what generation of instructor they learned from as long as it is effective. Time spent worrying about how ¡°pure¡± your style is and time spent avoiding schools because they teach more than one art is, in the end, less time training. Additionally, many people have few choices where to train. To not learn Hapkido, an art that I love, because the instructor also teaches Taekwondo, and maybe is the only Hapkido and Taekwondo provider in the area, seems a bit silly to me.
Thomas: I see where you are coming from and you have some good points as always..however, what you are advocating is MMA cross training..nothing wrong with that. But, that is not Hapkido in an integrated sense. No common underpinnings. All I am saying is that if a person is seeking Hapkido in its generally recognized form, then Hapkido is NOT TKD, JKD, BJJ or whatever other style people want to drag into it. I thought that the thread was about beware..TKD..HKD .. We must be carefull to explain to beginners how to distinguish the differences on the scale of 'most like to least like' Hapkido in the (OH NO!!) "traditional" sense.. I know you are more than familiar with this problem..as it manefests itself today in Hapkido. I know the basic problem is the lack of dedicated Hapkido schools tracing their roots back to original Masters from the 50's and 60's. Traditionally flavoured Hapkido is VERY HARD to learn..so some people just try and make it easier to attract students..that's all. Just don't call it Hapkido!
"Traditionally flavoured Hapkido is VERY HARD to learn..so some people just try and make it easier to attract students..that's all." "I know the basic problem is the lack of dedicated Hapkido schools tracing their roots back to original Masters from the 50's and 60's." This is why we only have 40 students. This is why we only have 5 schools world wide. Three in Korea, one in the US, and we just opened one in Germany. TKD and HKD in the same school is NOT traditional Hapkido. Not pure as far as I am concerned(oops! there goes that ego again). Not to sound overly aggresive on my defense of Hapkido but, I refuse to apologize for being a traditionalist and being pure. Too many people out there think they are teaching Hapkido. Marc Tedeschi's 1135 page Hapkido book is proof enough about that. I see a handful of Hapkido type techniques done but again, with a TKD mind. I have NEVER found a good Hapkido Book (aside from Bong-Soo Han who is like an uncle to me). I am writing one however, that will be truthful and show correct technique and application. Not that I am perfect nor claim to be. What I learned in Korea from one who studied under Choi, Young-Sool. We have had our school open in the US for 3 years. ANYONE who said they trained in Hapkido, never said they did again after visiting our school. They said it was an eye opener. This is an open invitation to all to come and see for yourself. I know I sound egotistical to some. Different are self confidence and ego. I am sure of what I teach. I have seen 8mm of GM Choi in Korea. We teach exactly the same thing. I will point you to my previous post---><b>HKD with a TKD mind</b> Welcome to our school. ^_^
Have you ever seen Dr. He-Young Kimm's books? I think they are very well put together. Speaking of Bong Soo Han what do you think of him promoting people in Hapkido via video tapes? Some of these videos I have seen and there is more kicking than anything else. This seems to go against your Hapkido philosophy.
I have seen Dr. Kimm's techniques. They are not the same as ours. That is all I can say. You cannot learn hapkido from a book. You need to feel the technique, I think we all agree with that. I don't agree with the video tapes as far as learning. You Cannot learn Hapkido from video. Thay are good however for students to refresh while home sick or on vacation. As far as kicking. That is the only thing I don't like about that. Koreans first believed that Americans like kicking because that is what we were first exposed to, or thought that martial arts were supposed to have kicks. I wouldn't say he sold out. He still teaches the true technique.
Dr. Kimms original Hapkido bible was written in colaboration with GM Ji Han Jae, and from what I've heard is GM Ji's original curriculum. It is an expensive book, but the most comprehensive and best I've seen for Hapkido. Dr. Kimm has since formed HanMuDo and has added some Kuk-sool and other martial arts techniques to his art. His Hapkido 2 book is pretty much his Hanmudo curriculum. Grandmaster Han's program that I speak of, has people learn from his video tape collection, then copy the techniques from the tapes, tape themselves doing them, and then send those tapes in to get promoted. No actual contact with him is necassary. There is a TKD instructor here in Nebraska that was going through his program and was promoted to green or blue belt, and he knows less about Hapkido than my yellow belts. I'm sure GM Han is a great Hapkidoist, and I am thankful for what he has done for promoting the art, but this video tape thing kind of blows me away.
Getting a bit tired I get tired of hearing that someone such as myself does not study true Hapkido? or that my Hapkido isn't the right kind? or that because I learn Hapkido in a school that teaches TKD as well, that my style is not valid? To say that I have not learned traditional Hapkido is an insult to me, my instructors and the International Hapkido Federation, of which I hold a 2nd dan under. Further more, without knowing me and the way that I train, it is a further insult. I personally don't see Hapkido as being a pure style?at all. Hapkido comes from Aikijujitsu and is mixed (CROSS TRAINED) with Tae Kkyeon, other old Korean elements (some which may have come from China). If you argue that you learn PURE Hapkido as taught by the founder, you learn Aikijujutsu. If you learn the later styles by Choi's students, you learn a mixed style. There are (and were) lots of different Hapkido kwans and they all do it a bit differently. In the words of Shadow Warrior "Hapkido is a living breathing martial art, not a set of robotic motions. To live this you must not ignore any sets of techniques which can kill you..in this case kicking..? To simply that everyone is wrong except your own is at best, naive and closed minded, and at worst arrogant. Yes, I learn at a school that teaches Hapkido and Taekwondo. Should you beware of it? No. Why not? In Taekwondo, my master has trained some students who went on to become state champions (NY) and produced some very good competitors, some of whom went to Nationals. Might not sound like much, but we are a very small school in an isolated area of the country. As for Hapkido, my master was inducted into the World Karate Union's Hall of Fame as "2002 Hapkido Instructor of the Year"(http://members.tripod.com/worldkarateunion.org/id28.htm) and will be inducted into the 2004 Action world Martial Arts Hall of Fame (http://www.martialartsexpo.com/) Again, not bad for a small school with a humble master who trains hard and seeks no recognition (Both awards were big surprises). By the way, quality of the instruction: excellent. Would I leave this school to train at a traditional school with one of the highly qualified instructors who can claim direct descent from numbers of grandmasters? Not at all. Are there some schools that teach Hapkido and Taekwondo poorly? Yes. That's why it is more important to check out the schools before you go. My advice though, don't discount a school ONLY because they offer more than one style. Are there good ones? Yes, for example, where I train. As some wise men have said: "Sometimes, two minds are stronger than one.? (If this post has made anyone mad or hurt, I do apologize, but I refuse to have my training, my master, or my way of training insulted. I love to share experience and ideas, but get sick of having my background and training put down by people who don't know me.) History sources: http://www.hapkiyoosool.com/hist.htm and http://www.martialartsplanet.com/magazine/articles/hapkido1.htm
I see you used your history sources from our website. Hapkiyoosool.com thank you,I am honored! Hapkiyoosool in Japanese is pronounced, Aikijujutsu. We do not teach kicks(per say). You will also see us wearing Hakama. Ever wee that in a hapkido school? We study how kicks are performed to know how to better defend against them. TaeKyon was the choice hard style of the period, thus we learn how TaeKyon kicks work. I have never kicked anyone. Step on their ankle pressure points to make them pass out, yes. YOU SAID: "As for Hapkido, my master was inducted into the World Karate UnionÃÔ Hall of Fame as ¡¦002 Hapkido Instructor of the Year¡¦" May I ask you a question after my comment without anger, but deep thought? I have been offered MANY "Hall of Fame" inducts. I refused them all. Did you master have to pay his own way there, his dinner ticket, and hotel room? Now I will ask this. How many "Hall of Fame" people do you know in any other art like music, or sports like footbal who had to foot their own bill to be inducted. If you have to pay to be inducted, it just isn't right. Think about paying to recieve the "Nobel Peace Prize". It just sounds ludicrous!! If you feel insulted by what people are saying about TKD/HKD schools. I can guarentee you that it is because MOST of them are belt factories, you can agree with that. It was not a personal assault on anyone. Please don't take the dicussion forum so personal. Take it professionaly by saying things like. "I agree with you guys about the majority of TKD/HKD schools, I am glad we learn both very real in our school and I support you guys and look forward to sharing more with you." Not to put words in anyones mouth. Please understand, I am a friend who would like you to grow and flourish in the arts with patience and understanding. Anger does not suit any martial artist. Emotion will take you on a ride, further than you want to go, and keep you longer than you want to stay. Think of it this way: Your spirit leads mind, mind leads body. Spirit is personality, Mind is emotion and choice, body reacts to choice. We choose to be angry or upset. The most inportant thing to a sword is the blade. If the blade "Looses its temper" it gets dull and breaks. So is the spirit and mind. We allow our enemies to defeat us through our own mistakes. There are no ememies in here. I will say this last thing. You will find that Hapkido taught in a only Hapkido school differs from Hapkido taught in a TKD school. That is fact. After visiting over 90 school in the US, that is all I do is report what I have seen. Not a personal view or opinion. If you still feel I am wrong, I am sorry. I stand strong in my convictions and in the evidence of what myself and others have seen. As for me and my school, we teach Hapkiyoosool. ^_^ Thank You.
"I see you used your history sources from our website. Hapkiyoosool.com thank you,I am honored!" -You're welcome. I like the site, as well as the article I mentioned. "Hapkiyoosool in Japanese is pronounced, Aikijujutsu. We do not teach kicks(per say). You will also see us wearing Hakama. Ever wee that in a hapkido school? We study how kicks are performed to know how to better defend against them. TaeKyon was the choice hard style of the period, thus we learn how TaeKyon kicks work. I have never kicked anyone. Step on their ankle pressure points to make them pass out, yes. " -Yes, some of the masters in Korea wore Hakama. Some Hapkido schools, not Hapkiyoosool, teach kicks. We've been over this before. "YOU SAID: "As for Hapkido, my master was inducted into the World Karate UnionÃÔ Hall of Fame as ¡¦002 Hapkido Instructor of the Year¡¦" May I ask you a question after my comment without anger, but deep thought? I have been offered MANY "Hall of Fame" inducts. I refused them all. Did you master have to pay his own way there, his dinner ticket, and hotel room? Now I will ask this. How many "Hall of Fame" people do you know in any other art like music, or sports like footbal who had to foot their own bill to be inducted. If you have to pay to be inducted, it just isn't right. Think about paying to recieve the "Nobel Peace Prize". It just sounds ludicrous!!" - I mentioned that he was inducted into a Hall of Fame as "Hapkido Instructor of the Year", not to be arrogant but to show that a man who trains as he does has been recognized. He did not seek the recognition and yes, he had to pay his transportation and hotel. The dinner was free and there were no "fees" aside from that. Why does being recognized have to be a bad thing? And I presume that Football Hall of Famers pay their way to the location and for their hotel. I find it 'ludicrous' to discount a Hapkido Instructor BECAUSE he was inducted into a Hall of Fame as an instructor of the year. Maybe you could have used your own advice and replied professionally with "I am happy that you are trained under such a good teacher." "If you feel insulted by what people are saying about TKD/HKD schools. I can guarentee you that it is because MOST of them are belt factories, you can agree with that. It was not a personal assault on anyone. Please don't take the dicussion forum so personal. Take it professionaly by saying things like. "I agree with you guys about the majority of TKD/HKD schools, I am glad we learn both very real in our school and I support you guys and look forward to sharing more with you." Not to put words in anyones mouth. " - Read my other 490-some posts here, please. You will see that I do my utmost to share my knowledge in a professional and open-minded way without talking down to people. About the topic, yes I know there are some good ones and some bad ones. Some does not mean all. About taking it personally, sometimes I do. I get sick of having my training and art put down in a condescending way by people who come off as being arrogant, whether intentionally or not. "Please understand, I am a friend who would like you to grow and flourish in the arts with patience and understanding. " -For that, I sincerely thank you. I read your posts and whether I agree or disagree I think about them. "Anger does not suit any martial artist. Emotion will take you on a ride, further than you want to go, and keep you longer than you want to stay." - Don't confuse anger with something else. Some things need to be said. The day that senior belts believe they cannot learn anything more from their juniors is a sad day for any art. "I will say this last thing. You will find that Hapkido taught in a only Hapkido school differs from Hapkido taught in a TKD school. That is fact. After visiting over 90 school in the US, that is all I do is report what I have seen. Not a personal view or opinion." - I have trained in Hapkido schools, in Taekwondo school, and in schools that teach both. Guess what? ALL schools teach differently and some are good and some aren't. I hope I haven't hurt anyone's feelings, but some things need to be said. Regarding the original topic, it is so important to checkl out school thoroughly before signing on. If you want to study Hapkido and the only option is through a school that also teaches TKD, investigate it. You may come across one of the good ones out there, like I managed to.
