hitting a man while he's down?

Discussion in 'MMA' started by gt3, Aug 7, 2005.

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  1. gt3

    gt3 Member

    I just watched a UFC fight on spiketv with chris lebon and some poor sap and lebon immediately tackled him and started punching him (which i know is normal in MMA fights) the thing is that lebon kept punching the guy in the head even though lebon was mostly standing on his feet.

    My question is why isn't this considered dishonorable in these fights? Hitting or kicking a man while he's down is usually frowned upon in any other arena. After these guys win they're so proud of themselves and act so macho, but if they're so confident and macho why wouldn't they let their opponent get back up? I can understand if they're both rolling around and "stuck" on the ground, but lebon wasn't, he was standing up and the other guy was on the ground trying to get up after being punched and elbowed in the face 10 times after having the misfortune luck of getting taken to the ground in the first place.

    Shouldn't the referees step in and say "okay you two, back on your feet??" I'm no expert on MMA but this just appears pretty pathetic. Maybe it just happens because this sport isn't about honor in the first place so stuff like this is what people wanna see? Just brutal beatings--no art, no heart :( Please help me to understand this
     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2005
  2. GojuKJoe

    GojuKJoe Valued Member

    MMA is an arena where actual FIGHTS take place. It's less sport like than boxing or kickboxing. I would like it if that kind of honour was practical, but the fact is, in today's world there is no room for honour if you want to protect yourself.
     
  3. SCP_Kensei

    SCP_Kensei www.taintedlover.com

    The reason it is that way is becasue MMA competitions (especially so called "No Holds Barred" competitons) seek to emulate real fighting as much as possible. They aren't about who is the best Wrestler, or best Kickboxer, not really about who is the best martial artist. they are about who is the best overall fighter.

    In the street the best fighter is determined by who walks away intact at the end of the fight. The same is true in MMA/NHB.

    Why should there be any questions of honour? MMA/NHB is not a noble pursuit for gentlemen to indulge in at their leisure, it's brutal, aggressive and nasty. It's as realistic as we can get legally.
     
  4. notquitedead

    notquitedead used to be Pankration90

    Hitting someone while they are down has nothing to do with honor. It's against the rules in boxing and that's what a lot of people base their opinion of a "fair fight" on, but kicking, elbowing, kneeing, grappling, etc. are all illegal in boxing as well.
     
  5. gt3

    gt3 Member

    There should be questions of honour because they call themselves 'martial artists'. But i watched more of the event and they were talking about how lebon pee'd on his opponent's bed and a few other things and i basically get that these guys are just emotionally immature people with a lot of issues and anger, not what the martial arts is about. Which is compassion and fighting only for self-defense or to defend those who are weaker.

    BUt i guess you can call yourself whatever you want but at the end of the day to 'be a true martial artist' or a true anything, you gotta proove it not just talk about it.

    Also, if this is supposed to be about real street fights why do they have rules? I guess "mixed martial arts" or "ultimate fighting" sounds better than "Street fighting with rules with guys who sometimes use basic martial arts moves" :p
     
  6. GojuKJoe

    GojuKJoe Valued Member

    It's not about martial arts by your standards, it's simply about fighting and nothing more. It's the ultimate (or as close as one can get) competition between two human beings.
     
  7. SCP_Kensei

    SCP_Kensei www.taintedlover.com

    Not all MArtial Arts have a concept of honour. You will find notions of honour in most traditional arts only extend to the edge of the battlefield. Once you step onto the field of battle anything goes.

    How you defin honour is another matter. I define honour as respecting your opponent, following the rules of the competition, and respecting the referee. Beyond that anything goes.

    You might define honour as not hitting a guy when he's down, not attacking form behind or many other precepts but not everyone believe in the same notions.

    I am a true martial artist. Why? Because I practise Martial Arts. They are the primary focus of my life at the moment.
    I will probably be in a psoition to have my first Muay Thai fight sometime in the next 12 months. When I step in the ring, i'll be courteous an respectful to my opponent, I'll touch gloves and wont bad mouth him before the match. Once the bell Rings I will try to do my very best to destroy him as early as possible. Fists, Feet, Shins, Elbows, Knees, everything I have till only one of us is standing. I wont back off of kicking his thighs just because he's hopping on one leg, I wont stop elbowing him accross the face just because he's bleeding, i'll do everything I can to end the fight.
    I'll expect him to be doing the same thing.

    And at the end of the fight i'll walk accross the ring and shake his hand, win or lose.

    As to why these competions have rules, it's because people were getting too badly damaged when it was truly No Holds Barred (check out the early UFC's), also the sport's biggest competition the UFC is regulated by the Nevada State Gaming Commission who would not allow the fights to take place wihtout strict rules.

    Really? Says who? The martial arts are about whatever the martial artist wants them to be about. If you wan them to be about only fighting stand up, or only on the ground. With no Back attacks and no dirty boxing then fine. While you are busy trying to hit me with nice clean body and head strike form a good stance and sopping if you knock me down; i'll be laying into with every natural weapon I am allowed use, if you go down I am going to keep hitting you till the referee says stop. Why? Because I will be giving it my best. It would be disrespectful to you (and therefore dishonourable) if I did any less.
     
  8. NaughtyKnight

    NaughtyKnight Has yellow fever!

    Honour has nothing to do with sports. What matters is sportsmanship (playing by the rules). The whole point of UFC is to show case the martial arts vs other styles (or at least it used to be). To do this, you have to allow pretty much everything.

    In boxing, it would be considered bad sport (and illegal) to headbutt your opponent. Because most boxers are fair sportsmen, they dont headbutt. If they did, they wouldnt be dishonourable, just showing poor sportsmanship.
     
  9. SCP_Kensei

    SCP_Kensei www.taintedlover.com

    Well said. If it's in the rules, use it if it's not then dont. Dont let outside bleiefs limit what you do in the ring. It'll cost you the fight most fo the time.
     
  10. GojuKJoe

    GojuKJoe Valued Member

    I would say that in that case, the boxer would infact be dishonourable, because he broke the rules that he'd agreed to. But I don't see anything dishonourable about two people getting in a ring and fighting under mma rules because they both agreed to it, and both train for it.
     
  11. gt3

    gt3 Member


    I don't understand how you can say you'd respect him and wouldn't bad mouth him before the fight, but once the fight starts you're aim is to 'destroy him'. Why is the aim to destroy someone? that's much worse than bad mouthing :p It's like saying well before the fight i wont talk bad about you and after the fight i'll shake your hand, but during the fight i hate you. Don't you ever wonder why you want to escape the normal respectful world and enter the violent world, on purpose?
     
  12. NaughtyKnight

    NaughtyKnight Has yellow fever!

    Its a sport. Nothing more.

    When you are playing football against someone, you aim is to win. You dont bare grudge against your opponent after the game, your just playing a sport.
     
  13. gt3

    gt3 Member

    weird, cuz i see grudges held all the time in violent sports, including mainstream sports like football and boxing. The very UFC fight i spoke of was actually a grudge match in a way because the guy whose bed chris lebon pee'd on while they were living in the UFC house for the reality show on spiketv, actually said that he was angry and wanting pay back in this fight
     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2005
  14. NaughtyKnight

    NaughtyKnight Has yellow fever!

    And how is it dishonourable?
     
  15. gt3

    gt3 Member

    You're right, they have no shame to begin with for it to become dishonorable :p
     
  16. thomaspaine

    thomaspaine Valued Member

    :bang: :bang: :bang:
    You're obviously very new to MMA, and I'm willing to bet that you're one of those morons who doesn't think boxing or wrestling is a martial art. If you were at all familiar with MMA you'd realize that 99% of the fighters are very respectful of one another (note the touching of gloves before rounds, and hugging after the fight). Check out Randy Couture, Rich Franklin, or George St. Pierre, and don't make broad generalizations on an entire group of people because of the actions of Chris Leben. Sure guys will talk trash before fights, but IMO it's just to create drama and make the fights more interesting for the fans.

    I still fail to see how punching a person on the ground is dishonorable. I'm guessing you don't know anything about groundfighting. If they didn't have groundfighting, then it'd be called kickboxing, wtf did you expect from an MMA fight? Do you just have something against martial artists competing against each other? Why is a karate, boxing, or wrestling tournament any less barbaric than an MMA fight?

    Please define what you mean by a "true martial artist" and "honor". Do you mean Bushido, because funny thing about Samurai honor is that they found it ok to cut innocent peasants in half to test out their swords, and I'm pretty sure that they wouldn't have a problem with punching someone who's on the ground.
     
  17. Freeform

    Freeform Fully operational War-Pig Supporter

    MMA was originally created to compete in combat. In combat there is no 'honour', lots of martial arts have become perverted over the last hundred years with the introduction of the 'do' concept in Japanese MA. Combat is about defeating the other guy in the easiest possible fashion, because if you don't do it tothem, they will sure as hell do it to you.
     
  18. Davey Bones

    Davey Bones New Member

    It's a sport, deal with it. Within the ruleset of the UFC, ground and pound is quite honourable. It comes with the rules, and sure as heck is more realistic than two guys bouncing around love tapping each other. And keep in mind, many people suggest the mindset you don't seem to like, all the way back to The Book of the Five Rings... treat every fight as if it's to be your last. They get paid to go all out.

    And of course the guys have personalities! They have to. That's how they get invited to compete in the first place. Yes, they have to be decent fighters, but the fact of the matter is that people have to like them (or hate them as the case may be) as well.
     
  19. aml01_ph

    aml01_ph Urrgggh...

    gt3 I am surprised that a person like you still exists here who holds such a naive view on martial arts.
     
  20. Street Warrior

    Street Warrior New Member

    MMA is a 'real fight' situation. In a real street fight it (in my opinion) is unwise to stop and let someone stand to continue the fight. Also, just because someone is on the ground does not mean they are helpless. A true Street Warrior should be trained in groundgrappling as well as upright fighting, after all, it is thought that the majority of street fights end up with both (assuming it is a two person fight) fighters on the ground.
     
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