Hit 23 times in under 3 seconds

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Discussion' started by Thomas Vince, Mar 18, 2002.

  1. Thomas Vince

    Thomas Vince New Member

    One of my old instructors once hit someone on film and although controlled he hit 23 times in under 3 seconds using hands and feet and elbows. It was amazing.
    What are some of your thoughts and feelings about speed and how it can be generated. What are somw of the things that you do to build up your speed?
  2. Pablo

    Pablo New Member

    It sounds like pretty standard stuff - skillful for sure, but not all that amazing. Now Lin Kong Jin, thats amazing :)

    Have you checked out the 'Speed Hitting' guy? He gives a pretty straight forward explanation of this sort of thing (multiple strikes with various body parts, flowing and bouncing into the next strike, etc.) Also an outfit called Health for Life (if I remember correctly) put out a nice paper on the physical and mental components of MA speed a couple of decades ago.

    just my .02

  3. Chazz

    Chazz Keepin it kickin TKD style

    I always love to see things like that because it requires skill. But with work and guidance any of us can do that. I wish i could now. *LOL*
  4. pesilat

    pesilat Active Member

    Basically echoing what the others have said ... with a little more detail.

    The key to generating speed in general is proper relaxation. By this, I don't mean going limp (though that can be useful for some things). What I mean is relaxing those muscles which aren't necessary. A simple example is a jab. When your arm goes out, your tricep tenses to pull it out. If your bicep is tensed then it will be fighting your tricep. So, on the way out, you want your bicep as relaxed as possible and then, as soon as you've hit the apex of your strike, you relax your tricep as much as possible so it doesn't hinder the retraction of the strike (which relies on your bicep tensing). This principle can be applied to virtually any strike and, through development, will increase your basic striking speed.

    To increase your overall speed, you have to (as others mentioned) develop your "flow" from strike to strike. This also relies on relaxation because relaxation increases tactile sensitivity and general mobility. So, going back to the jab example, relax your bicep as you fire out, then at the apex of your strike, relax your tricep and let your arm fold back ... but also move your body in so that you "roll" from the jab into an elbow. When the elbow lands, you can then flow to a backfist, which then sets up your other hook.

    Terms that I've heard related to this topic:

    "Body Contouring": which means using the contour of your opponent's body to guide your strikes ... you have to remain sensitive because his body position will change dynamically in general during a fight and specifically in response to being hit

    "Economy of Motion": which means only moving as much as necessary to accomplish your strike and don't overcommit yourself

    "Efficiency of Motion": similar to and related to "Economy of Motion" but has more to do with accomplishing multiple tasks with a minimal amount of motion (i.e.: the "interception" in my "Applied Trap Hands" article which both deflects the incoming strike and strikes the opponent all in one motion). It's kind of the flip side of "Economy of Motion" ... "Economy" deals is isolated within how you move your body. "Efficiency" deals with how you relate to your opponent. They overlap in a lot of ways but I prefer to view them as separate principles because the differences, while subtle, are important.

    "Relaxation": detailed above ... but should also include mental attitude ... the ability to mentally flow as well as physically flow

    "First come, first served" or "Defanging the Snake": whatever is in my range (his hand, foot, head, whatever) is what I attack to help prevent me from overextending

    "Trampoline or Pool Ball effect": striking with a ricochet motion that allows quicker more penetrating strikes (also mentioned previously in this thread)

    "Follow the energy of the opportunity / flow": discussed previously

    "Work high and low": basically, as you're flowing, don't get hung up on only working one area ... feel the openings and take them wherever they are

    "Incidental Striking": ties in with economy of motion ... as you move, clip nerves, muscles, weak areas, of the body. Bump with your hips, shoulders, etc (also mentioned previously in this thread). Not every strike has to be a finisher. A strike that distracts and/or sets up a finisher is as valuable as the finisher itself.

    Of course, the only way to achieve anything in martial arts is practice, practice, practice ... but these are some of the things I use when practicing to try to develop better overall striking speed.

  5. Freeform

    Freeform Fully operational War-Pig Supporter

    Yeah, what Mike said but in less words ;)

    Relax, Tense, Relax, Tense

    You should only be tense for the barest minimal of time, that point of contact.

  6. pesilat

    pesilat Active Member

    LOL :)

    Yup ... if you want to be succinct about the whole thing :) What can I say, I enjoy typing ;)

  7. Cooler

    Cooler Keepin The Peace Supporter

    And you do it so well Mike so keep it up.

  8. pesilat

    pesilat Active Member

    LOL ... thanks :) Verbosity is my middle name ... well, actually it's Edward ... but I think that must mean verbosity in some language somewhere :)

  9. Andy Murray

    Andy Murray Sadly passed away. Rest In Peace.

    Hit the sod properly the first time and save the energy for the other 22 guys!

    'With real emotional content'
  10. Freeform

    Freeform Fully operational War-Pig Supporter

    Yeah, as my old sensei used to say, 'If you have to hit him more than once you screwed it up!' :)
  11. waya

    waya Valued Member

    That is why baseball bats were invented :)
    When in doubt even the odds? lol

    I see alot of the speed training has been over commercialized along with everything else lately. Any of y'all see those ads to become Superman in the magazines? How many of them really know what they are talking about do you think?

  12. Andy Murray

    Andy Murray Sadly passed away. Rest In Peace.


    One pair of Blue Spandex leggings. One Red Cape. As new.

    The Wing Chun system trains chain punching. I reckon this has to be the fastest form of striking there is.
  13. waya

    waya Valued Member

    I haven't seen much of that. My knowledge of the Chinese systems is very limited.... elaborate if you would lol.
  14. pesilat

    pesilat Active Member

    I think if they actually had a clue they would realize that you can't make anyone invincible. It's just a marketing ploy.

    If they do actually have some martial skill then it's *really* sad that they would stoop so far to make a buck.

  15. Andy Murray

    Andy Murray Sadly passed away. Rest In Peace.

    The Wing Chun punch has the knuckles in a vertical as opposed to a horizontal line. The starting position for the punch is halfway to the target. There is no hip twist or shoulder rotation involved, you simply thrust out the fists alternately, with the punching hand passing over the retracting hand. The punch hits with the lower three knuckles of the hand. The arm and hand are relaxed until the moment of impact!

    A Karate punch is like an Iron Bar!

    A Kung Fu punch is like an Iron Chain, with an Iron Ball on the end!

    The last bit is lifted from a TV interview with Bruce Lee
  16. waya

    waya Valued Member

    I find the knuckles used a bit odd as they are the ones easiest to break. I use a vertical punch but never hit with the floating knuckles

  17. Andy Murray

    Andy Murray Sadly passed away. Rest In Peace.

    If it's not broken, you don't have to fix it!

    I'm happier doing 'breaks' with those knuckles, then I am with the first two.

    I may argue a lot, but I aint gonna question a system as old and scientifically unique as Wing Chun.

    I know a TKD guy, who had an impact break on the knuckle of the smallest finger, so I know what you mean Rob.

    Andy M
  18. waya

    waya Valued Member

    lol I have broken them before that's why I don't use them now, but then again I was never taught specifically to strike with them so that would have a major impact on doing it.
  19. pesilat

    pesilat Active Member

    I believe that the intent is not the "strike" with the lower three knuckles. They make initial contact but the actual force is delivered with the first two knuckles in a rolling motion on the very end which then feeds into the retraction of the strike. Of course, I've never studied WC so I don't know how the system does it.

  20. waya

    waya Valued Member

    hmmmmmmm put like that it makes complete sense LOL


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