History of the BJJ Belt system.

Uh... no. They don't have any newaza. They explore newaza and employ their tactics in the range of newaza during randori, but they don't actually have any. And, in that regard, you can't see "their newaza in action". Again, there is only about a dozen kata, all tachiwaza (standing techniques) or suwariwaza (seated techniques), and then they train with methods that include randori. And, through that randori, newaza is dealt with.

In terms of them being more open, well, that's their choice, really. I'm familiar with a number of schools that are similar in their approach, and personally, I think it's a good thing... but I get where you're coming from.

 

By in action I meant in randori. That was pretty clear from the post.
I'd like to see their newaza in randori and how they combine it with the other skills they learn.

 

Yes, I drew attention to the Fusen Ryu guys to show another example of what the OP said here:

" the Kodokans efforts to basically co opt BJJ in its early days"

Its the same context, Kokokan approached an individual within BJJ to try to get him on the team, and they approached an individual within Fusen Ryu for the same purpose.

The argument here from you is semantics.

I do still believe that Fusen Ryu were incorporating Newaza Randori in their class structure prior to Tanabe setting off to challenge match people, I don't know if it is in their Ryu Ha or not and am not saying it is.

The reason I think it was there prior to the famous Tanabe, is that he was good at it whilst sparring with his fathers students. It is not exhaustive evidence but I feel compelling enough for me.

 

Okay, but that's not how things have come across. And, for the record, there was no "co-opting" of any Fusen Ryu guys... some, such as Tani, trained in Fusen Ryu early on, then went to the Kodokan. That's not co-opting, that's just a student changing schools. Tanabe wasn't approached to take him from Fusen Ryu to Kodokan either, he was brought in as a guest instructor. And as far as your belief that there must have been newaza in Fusen Ryu prior to Tanabe, frankly, that's not supported by anything from within or outside the Ryu other than people not understanding what Tanabe was teaching, or where it came from. And martial arts are replete with stories of people doing the same thing, branching off into their own speciality in order to create something new, from a variety of sources, so your not believing it's compelling enough really isn't enough of an argument to start saying that there was any newaza in Fusen Ryu either.

 

Tani was in London in his own school teaching his own style before Kano brought him into judo. Same with the French judoka who was teaching aiki jutsu before being promoted into judo.

 

The curriculum of Fusen ryu is substantially bigger then "dozen waza". Can I ask, where did you get this information from?



And no, Im not member of said ryuha, so can't offer any real insight. Sorry :bow1:

 

From someone who is associated with the Ryu and it's members.

 

...

 

That would apply to quite a few people.

You couldn't say more about the teaching lineages or dojo locations? Or ist the "dozen waza only" official from honbu?


D.

 

more... this has been done before in many places

http://martialarts.stackexchange.co...here-any-documentation-of-newaza-in-fusen-ryu

I like the comments-

''t's probably not accurate to say that Tanabe of the Fusen introduced the concept of ground fighting to the Kodokan, but he may have been of higher proficiency than most of Kano's boys. Kano wasn't above inviting experts to teach at the Kodokan; I suspect this is another example of Kano recruiting from the best to teach at his school.
He goes on (bless our lucky stars):

Fusen-ryu per se may also be something of a red herring; we know that Mataemon Tanabe was also associated with the Handa dojo and that both Uyenishi and Miyake referred to the Handa dojo in connection with their own training before they started competing outside Japan. As I quoted earlier, Miyake specified that the style(s) taught at the Handa dojo emphasized ne-waza.

My best guess on this, because we quickly run out of documentable sources, is that ne-waza was something more in the nature of a personal specialty of Tanabe's, perhaps shared by Yataro Handa (I can't recall their formal relationship offhand). I would further speculate that there may have been some connection between what was being taught at the Handa dojo and the more-or-less informal inter-style competition rules/conventions that were evolving as a result of the high-school level competitions during the 1890s and very early 1900s, which was when the international judo/jujitsu pioneers were training in Japan. Again, those rules also appear to have emphasized competitive ne-wazza.''

So all of this may be more about someone developing and adapting a new style according to the methods and meetings of great minds of that era.. it's great that both judo and BJJ have benefited from these men that helped to develop and preserve this stuff. It does seem a bit sad though that to a degree this has been turned into a bit of a marketing exercise from what I can see.

Interesting anyways..

LFD

 

When does suwariwaza become newaza?

Maybe the Fusen ryu connection is in fact just a fluke in history - Sort of a red herring.

Most old jujutsu styles have a collection of suwari- or idoriwaza. Some of the techniques could pass as BJJ techniques; start from knees, grab something, twist-roll-lock, rinse-and-repeat.

Looking at the end result today - judo ne-waza and BJJ - there is huge jump in between. But it has also been a century's worth of development and fighting/competition. The lineage is there. Starting from somewhat limited number of techniques, thru Tanabe's tenacity and innovation to Judo. Have to admit I have problems wraping my mind around it myself, but that is the story according to historical sources. With different set of events, might have been some other ryu-ha getting famous alltogeather

The thing I find mildly annoying is how little Koryu people want to even try to understand others. Anytime the guestion about ne-waza in old jujutsu comes up, the standard answer is "No newaza, only idoriwaza, get lost". It is true, but does cut more then couple of corners. Faint smell of BS on this side of the fence

 

Yeah, I get that.... What I can say is that the information comes to me from practitioners of the Ryu via a mutual friend.

I'd classify it as a false connection, myself. Almost a guilt by association thing.

Many, sure. Most? Not so sure. I suppose the first thing to look at is what you're classing as an old jujutsu style... one that focuses on Jujutsu, or just one that includes it? Then you get the problem of whether suwariwaza are newaza... and, when looking at these things, it's usually best to use the classification as used in the particular Ryu-ha itself... which in most cases means no, they're considered separate. There may be, and would typically be, some cross over, but they are still separate areas and ranges.

I don't think it's such a huge jump, though. That's what happens when you get a specialization, particularly when involving sporting forms or peacetime exploration. It's why peacetime systems tend to be larger and more complex/sophisticated than wartime systems, and also is exactly why BJJ itself has continued to develop and improve it's methods. I don't think anyone would argue the fact that BJJ is one of the best, if not the best groundfighting system around today... is that because they just took what Maeda taught and then did nothing else? No, they took what was taught, and continued to test, develop, explore, expand, and improve in their area of specialization.

Honestly, I don't think that's a particularly fair assessment... in fact, I'd suggest that Koryu people are more interested in understanding where things come from than most gendai people are. The common rhetoric from gendai practitioners is that lineage doesn't mean anything, it only matters if it "works"... for Koryu people, lineage is incredibly important. And, as a result, there is concern for things to be put down correctly and properly. As such, when it comes to the idea of "no newaza, only idoriwaza", that's not about shutting down other opinions, it's about classifying things correctly. Unlike how it can be in the more modern systems, idoriwaza/suwariwaza is not necessarily a transitional range from tachiwaza to newaza... as a result, a real distinction is present, and required.

 

Hmm, strange. I don't see how the dozen waza in the first set of the ryu-ha turned into dozen waza in the whole ryu-ha.

And yet all and sundry are trying to find the Holy Grail of Fusen ryu ne-waza. I do appreciate the irony here.

Seems like this and the "evolution/competition" is just rhetoric. Do you think deep down people just want BJJ to have impressive Koryu-roots?

 

Nah, most BJJ players don't really care, or look further past than Helio Gracie.

 

I for one am pretty happy with the connections to Judo and Kano Jigaro, would feel no need to try and falsify a connection to an older ryu nor would I find any further validation for what I do if one was proven, I think you would find most BJJ practitioners to hold the same opinion.



This man started an attitude in martial arts that is still changing the game to this day whilst most "impressive Koryu" schools have been squarely relegated to the history books.

 

shouldn't that be Mitsuyo Maeda, Helio was a legend but contrary to popular belief's there are actually BJJ linages which go back to Maeda with absolutely no contact with the Graice line.

 

Most BJJ people would think that Koryu was someone from the "Streetfighter" games.
Most BJJ people don't really care about "roots" either. They are interested in efffectiveness in the here and now.
Can you tap me? Yes? Can you show me how? Cool.
"Some badasses in Brazil had loads of fights " is roots enough for them I think.

 

There fixed it for you!

 

Yeah, there was one lad who got an honorary red belt after showing the effectiveness of leg locks or something?

 

lol there's a bit more too it than that.

http://www.sherdog.net/forums/f12/history-non-gracie-bjj-lineage-2109613/

http://www.bjjheroes.com/bjj-fighters/oswaldo-fadda-facts-and-bio

http://www.dstryrsg.com/2012/01/grappler-know-thy-lineage-luis-franca.html

http://13thtemple.wordpress.com/jiu-jitsu/nova-uniao-jiu-jitsu-mma/history-of-jiu-jitsu-oswaldo-fadda-nova-uniao-and-non-gracie-jiu-jitsu/

its a legit and thriving linage passed down by true masters of the sport not a non BJJ grappler who was given an "honorary" belt for showing proficiency at a certain technique.