Thanks, Jack: Rennis and Bear are pretty much right on the money. I would also add one other bit ----"ploy"---- that I have seen come up in MA and I attribute it to marketing. I will use the Okinawan NUNCHUKAS for my example. There are folks who train in authentic KOBUDO, and the items that they practice can sometimes be identified with the Okinawan military (pre-1600). The staff, sword/shield and the SAI in its various forms can fall into this category. However, sometimes they also factor-in the NUNCHUKAS which actually do not have a historical precedence. With me so far? Okay, now we move to, say, Korea. The Korean Military had the "Korean Flail" (see: MUYE TOBOTONGJI; 2000) as a polearm. The Korean culture also used the flail to husk grains. Once again there is no record of the farmer's flail being used as a weapon, but this does not stop the TKD schools from letter their students use this "Korean" weapon since there is the existence of a flail in Korean culture. See what I mean? The modern Chinese MA have been doing this for years. It also works the other way as well. Firearms introduced by the Dutch to early 16th Century Japan became known all over the Asian continent, but you don't see anyone including these in their MA curriculum. The same goes for the European sabre. Make sense? Best Wishes, Bruce
Just a couple of points: Kobudo can mean koryu when spoken by a Japanese. You'll find DVDs, for instance, on Nihon Kobudo - Suiô ryu. Or people talking about Tatsumi ryu in the same terms. Not usual, but it happens. Also, about firearms, I'd point to Teppojutsu & Jukendo. I've seen the first included in the syllabus of some legitimate koryu --can't, for love of life, remember which one, and it was along the more obscure weapons, but still--, and the second is not koryu, but early 20th century, I believe. Be well.
There are still several Koryu that teach Hojutsu (砲術) or gunnery using the musket, as well as cannon in some cases, Seki-ryu (関流), Yo-ryu (陽流), Morishige-ryu (森重流), and the Inatomi-ryu (稲富流) are all fairly well known and still teach in Japan, as well as demonstrate at the major Koryu demos here each year.. Jukendo is a recent addition, created to allow the early 20th century Japanese soldiers to fight using a rifle with a bayonet attached. The art is not Koryu, although some of it's origins could be said to have come from those roots, Sojutsu being one of them I believe..Theart focuses only on the use of the bayonet, and not on the use of the rifle...As far as I know. This is the Japanese Homepage of the Zen Nihon Jukendo Renmei; http://www.jukendo.info/ It's slightly more rare than say, Kendo or Naginata, but it can still be seen and is demoed fairly regularly at major events for the Gendai arts here.. And lastly, "kobudo" as a term simply means "Old martial ways" and doesn't specifically refer to either Okinawan arts, or mainland Japanese Koryu...So it is used by many Japanese interchangeably with Koryu as a way of defining what it is we do...I have observed that fairly often, the Japanese place far less emphasis on the "meaning" of the words than we can tend to in the west..As long as the idea is conveyed, several ways of saying the same thing are often accepted and understood.. Bottom line, we should all place less emphasis on one strict meaning to a word, unless that meaning is inherent in the phrase.."Okinawan Kobudo" for an example.. Anyway... Just my useless ichien on the whole debacle.. Regards.
Was reading a sub-forum in this forum, and also other forums, and just had a thought. If it was so difficult to fake a ryu, why do I keep seeing people debating over the legitimacy of Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu?
Probably more than these, but here's what I think; 1) Takamatsu (the man who taught Hatsumi, the current head of the school) was a certified master in several Koryu already, this being the case it could be argued that if he was responsible for "creating" the Ninja related schools he would have an "expert" hand in what should be included in them...Indeed, it is my own opinion that rather than create them from scratch, he found a few old schools that had fallen and used what he already knew and understood about Budo to renew them...This has been done before, and is still done to some degree.. Basically, the lineage is doubtful, but the techniques were in all likelyhood passed on by a man who KNEW very well what Koryu should look and "taste" like..Making the search for the truth in the case rather more obscure. 2) The schools in question (If they were "renewed" or "created") were created in the 20th century, and as such there are very few people in the world who really understand what Koryu is...If the techniques didn't work in the Edo Jidai, you died when you attempted to prove it (Or were injured..Or lost in public), but today nothing like that can be done to find out...So, if Hatsumi claims that he moves the way he does because that's the way "Ninja used to move through mud", no one can disprove it..Because Ninja don't exist anymore... Those who are in the position to judge what attributes make a Koryu have already chosen what their position regarding Hatsumi and the Bujinkan is...He is not a member of the group he requested to join. But that is incidental to the majority of his students, who naturally believe what they are told by their teacher... 3) The lineage used by Takamatsu was sufficiently murky to establish a reasonable doubt as to the authenticity of the schools, but it was also sufficiently clouded to establish a small chance that it may be true..Although it doesn't look likely, since it's a "ninja" school it doesn't have too..It vindicates itself by claiming to be part of that world because apparently ninja didn't transmit the Ryuha using documents..They taught word of mouth...Which may, or may not be enough to swing the case for you.. Personally, I don't believe all the claims made, but either way, the Bujinkan is not Koryu for the overwhelming reason that what Hatsumi has done with the schools is so far removed from what Takamatsu may have had that it doesn't even look like Koryu..Indeed, Hatsumi seems to wish it that way.. Still..I'm sure we'll get a few Ninja responses about this too...That's my take on it all anyways..
Just a quick dovetail onto Ben's fine post. The dynamics he mentions can be generalizied to pretty much any MA situation that we can point to in the world today. In learning a traditional MA, it consistently takes an investment of Self, Time and Resources to learn. Most people in our modern World do not want to make this investment. However, that does not stop individuals from constructing activities that pander to the imaginings and fantasies of the typical Joe-on-the-street. Among the themes that such constructionists put forward are "this is easier .....faster...cheaper....just as good as..." . What makes this particularly simple to do is that there is rarely any sort of oversight by authorities, and most purveyors of authentic practices just roll their eyes and turn away. FWIW. Best Wishes, Bruce
