History of fighting styles or 'such and such is the mother art for every style evar'

Not really intended to be a huge debate... but:

How do people think they can really determine how much ancient fighting style influenced each other? I've seen quite a few people make posts along the lines of "Martial arts from ancient culture X influenced the martial arts of Y"... often taken to the point of claiming certain cultures really did have the "Mother art" for a region.

But even now it's difficult to agree on exactly what determines a particular style or technique... think how fine the differences are between different kinds of jab (read the Bas sidekick thread). Do we really think such fine differentiation between styles is possible after hundreds or thousands of years based on the generally vague evidence available to archeologists?

On paper many contemporary styles are hard to distinguish, and it's only because of the myriad video clips available that people can even tell what an alien style actually looks like. So can we really get any kind of clue what influenced what except by extrapolating (i.e. guessing) from broader cultural influences?

 

Perhaps to who ever hasn't trained long enough but with time it becomes very apparent.

If you train in a certain style for a lengthy period of time and move on to a completely different style you will always have left over influences from your old style.

With enough training you will be able to pinpoint the influences of certain styles from certain geographic regions and chronological time frames. Many styles influence each other and they all stem from the same place and lead to the same ends.

In the end everything is the same.

 

I think a lot of "masters" are full of it, claiming that their ma influenced some other styles. It's like they desperately seek aproval of what they are doing. I think there were no strong influences present in a way that one martial art significantly changed the other.

 

Inevitably it always turns into a huge debate though. Primarily because nationalism and issues of race get interjected... and basically from their everyone digs their heels in.

Recently on the FMA forum there's been a thread or two where individuals have an axe to grind. Regardless of the multifaceted nature of the development of MA's.

I don't really think that archeological data is the be all-end all of evidence on the matter. However... people will take the scantest evidence they can find and run with it to suit their own preconceived notions. It doesn't only happen with martial arts but with most things.

China comes to mind. If they had their way... they'd like the world to know they invented everything under the sun and that they were/are the center of the universe. Sigh... same crap different day.

As I pointed out in BGiles thread that got locked down... to get any broader picture of the transmission of something like a codified system of martial arts... or for that matter even minimal influence in martial style... one has to approach it with a multi pronged mind set. Archaeology, anthropology, linguistics to name just a few are some of skills that make it easier to start piecing to together themes and bigger pictures.

Much of the discussion is always going to be subjective. I think often when we dig through a persons post on the subject we can easily find if they open to new ideas or concepts on the subject. I've found from a few brief conversations with individuals like BGile that people get one idea stuck in their craw and they stick with it despite what other angles are presented.

Usually people are only willing to follow something back so far on a timeline before they lose interest or get bogged down in terms and areas they aren't really prepared to discuss in any in depth manner.

 

The main problem I have with any sort of martial arts genealogy is that it tends to imply that any nations, people or areas not yet touched by the mother art or its descendents (whatever it or they are) is full of people that can't fight properly yet.
People just slapping each other like children and falling over until they learn how to fight properly by gaining access to a "proper" martial arts lineage.
I just don't think that's the case.
Martial arts have sprouted up everywhere.
People in Britain could fight perfectly well before Asian arts made an appearance here even though we may not have been part of the India-China-Okinawa-Japan martial arts "pedigree" (or whatever pedigree you happen to favour or believe).

 

It's like trying to figure out who invented music. People been hummin' and a singin' and a hittin' them drums since the dawn of time. We's been kickin' each other's butts damn nigh as long, pardner.

I hate Stampede time.

-Mark