Here's where I draw the Line! Enough of this!

Discussion in 'Tae Kwon Do' started by Labatt, Jun 20, 2003.

  1. Helm

    Helm New Member

    I was 17 when i reached 1st dan, and my brother was 15 when he reached 1st dan at the same time.

    Both of us got to 1st dan in about 2 years, we're both very athlectic and natrually talented TKD'sts. At that point we were ranked in the same league as alot of other people who were older than us in the club. For power and lack of head-hair they beat us ok, but they couldnt match our speed, dedication and technique.

    My best memory of this, was shortly after i got to black belt, the class started and a guy who hadnt been to our class for about a year was there. He was a red belt, about 25 and looked fairly confident and well built. He was standing in the black belt senior line, beind another black belt, i walked up to line up and said "excuse me mate.." because he was supposed to stand behind me. He looked very annoyed, and looked at me and said "ok, we'll see in sparring", my teacher heard this but didnt say anything.

    Later on, as it would have it, we were doing sparring, and my teacher put me up against this guy, he looked at me like "RIGHT, now i'll show you".

    I kicked his ass. I kicked him in the face at least once, and got several nice headshots, totally wiped the floor with him.
    When we'd finished my teacher walked over and said, very loudly, "Hes good you know! No one reaches black belt here without being good!".

    The guy never came back.
     
  2. ptcruiser

    ptcruiser New Member

    Started in 1966, Kosho Ryu Kenpo, no 4-7 yr old blackbelts in it, only Thomas Mitose can promote blackbelts, black in 1973 till present 1st dan in Tae Soo Do, almost 50 yrs old. 5th dan in 1985. We don't promote like american TKD. Was 20 when promoted to blackbelt.
     
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2003
  3. JediMasterChris

    JediMasterChris Columbo

    You reached first dan in 2 years???? Woah, I reached first Dan in over 5.
     
  4. YODA

    YODA The Woofing Admin Supporter

    1973-1966 = 7 years
     
  5. ptcruiser

    ptcruiser New Member

    thanks Yoda,
    no 4-7 yr old blackbelts in kosho ruy kenpo
     
  6. Helm

    Helm New Member

    Possibly because they can pronounce it?

    Taekwondo and Karate is much easier to say for a 5 year old :D
     
  7. stump

    stump Supersub

    Thomas I hold brown belts in two different styles. Grades have no relevance to me anymore and I don't see them as important in judging a style. However the world at large does, hence my problem with pubescant 3rd Dans. Do you not take Tito Ortiz seriously because he doesn't wear a black belt or would you prefer if he did?

    >>>If the idea that a larger attacker will always beat a smaller attacker is taught in your school, I feel bad for the students. I would hate to tell the women's self defence group this news. What do you tell the small guys in the class? "You can't win because you are too small... >>>

    Don't be a ****. If you really believe a small person can beat a bigger person on an even keel you're living a fantasy. Why do they have weights in combat sports? If two people, one small one big have a go even no rules the bigger stronger person has the avantage, therer are things that can neutralise the advantage but the size advantage is a fact. If it wasn't why would you need ladies self dence in the first place?

    And are those child soldiers fighting hand to hand? I don't think so...so that point is hardly relevant.

    Age isn't a factor but seeing as a teenager hasn't developed yet the chances are a mature adult (don't classify myself as one of those btw) is going to beat a teenager. THere are exceptions (Ross Pettifer anyone?) but it's a fair rule. Sorry if you don't like it.

    By the way I've trained for about 8 years and as anyone who's trained with me will know I don't profess to be anything special


    Why are you obsessed with everyone and their black belts?....no offence but they don't mean sh1t.
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2003
  8. stump

    stump Supersub

    Labatt

    <<<I wan't your opinion on something guys. I pay this testing, I just pay it, make sure I get the certification ecetera. But, if I get to go free, no monthly payments, just testings I have to pay(gup testings are about hundreds something 1nce every 6 months) Do you think that is something you could settle for?>>>

    Up to you bud. Bear in mind that people who go through the getting ripped off get to the top and continue the cycle...which is why it's important not to play ball in the first place. It's about the free market. If enough people refuse to pay extortionate training fees the people who charge will have to review their charging structure or go out of business.
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2003
  9. Thomas

    Thomas Combat Hapkido/Taekwondo

    PTCruiser: A couple of things...

    (1) from a post ("When did you start training") on June 24, 2003 "Kosho Ryu Kenpo
    founded by the late James Mitose, Grandmaster
    5th Dan started in 1968 at 13, blackbelt since 1973 cross-trained in 4 other styles also.


    __________________
    ptcruiser"

    and then on this thread, you mention that you started in 1966 (and Yoda kindly did the math... but my my figuring, that comes out to 5 years... 1973-1968). Typing mistake somewhere...

    (2) I figured you'd get riled up by seeing the reference to 4-7 year old black belts in a system of (Ed Parker's) Kenpo. So, your kenpo school doesn't have "baby black belts"? Well, neither does my TKD school. The point I was trying to make is that when people generalize a WHOLE style based on one or two schools, it isn't right and doesn't represent the style. I would never slam Kenpo and say "well they have baby black belts...", I might slam ONE of the Kenpo schools if I had concrete knowledge of something dumb they were doing.

    Stump: Without being 4 stars (****) (whatever word you were trying to call me in the sake of clean discussion), a couple things:

    (1) Again, I have to disagree with bigger means winner. Hence the point of women's self defence: TO DEFEAT LARGER, STRONGER OPPONENTS. Why do you talk about real self defence and then back up size differences by talking about competition weight classes. There are weight classes in competition to ensure a match more closely determined by skill and speed. On the street, there are no weight classes, which is why I train (and teach occassionally) how to defeat larger attackers. By the way, what's an even keel on the street (we are talking self defence)? I will use all of my skill and technique when facing someone on the street, who most likely will be bigger than me. So I guess I "am living in a fantasy world" because I believe a smaller person can beat a bigger guy.

    (2) Why am I obsessed about black belts? I am not. The problem I have is when people criticize a WHOLE STYLE based on one or two examples. I also hate it when people are put down because of their age or gender... and not considered as a valid martial artist. I get bothered also by people who have never been through a Taekwondo black belt test (let alone any black belt test) that take it upon themselves to put down black belts without knowing what they have been through. (Again, I am speaking through my own experiences in the schools where I practice TKD).
     
  10. stump

    stump Supersub

    The word was tw*t......no offence meant...more like a "come on....be serious". Sorry yoda!!!!

    I've trained with TKD people of both groups a lot, both good and bad. The good ones considered it a sport and nothing more...they were honest. TKD is a bad choice for self defence, but WTF is a great sport.

    Bigger peope have the advantage in a confrontation. A good big person will beat a good little person more often than not.....

    Gradings and black belts mean very little to me because they focus on kata and padded sparring not fighting. You're not comparing like with like
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2003
  11. ptcruiser

    ptcruiser New Member



    Kid, I tested the waters and found you are more mature than the average 15 yr old. Will change date on profile, it was a typo, I started in 1966 not 1968. I see you went to the website and found in kosho ryu kenpo there was no infant bb's. No disrespect to you paying and performing at your school for your 3rd dan. However I will say don't take it to a kumite and see if you can defend yourself against other 3rd dans. Patted sparring and full contact are different animals. I've been there with the Chuck Norris, Joe Lewis, Bob Wall, Superfoot Wallace, Dimetrius the greek, Gordan Doversala, The snake Williams( who will tell you his only defeat came from me) these are not names I have heard and seen on tv, they were/are my personal friends. I'm from the old school a missing tooth and all. (from full contact)
     
  12. KickChick

    KickChick Valued Member


    ... like I said.....<<casting a foreboding look at ALL the following replys posted thereafter>> :rolleyes:

    I literally opened up a can of worms!
    Note that this thread appears in the Tae Kwon do forum and has taken a turnabout (maybe due to my comment) I did not mean for this to happen.... but it has.

    Again, like I said "There is all kinds of controversy that involves the ma ... (and not only TKD).
    I am sure you will now run into "15 yrs. old and a 3rd dan black belt??" ...


    and you will continue to do so ...
     
  13. Thomas

    Thomas Combat Hapkido/Taekwondo

    PTCruiser:

    Thanks for the mixed comments... but I do have to clarify something: Labatt and Thomas are two different people.
    Thomas (me) is 32 years old and have been training in TKD since 1994 (and other fighting styles since 14). I haven't been called a "kid" in a while... but hey, it feels pretty good. As far as "paying and performing" for black belts... not in my school. They are earned.

    I did search some Kenpo sites and found some Kenpo systems that promoted black belts art the ages of 4-7 (see previous posts). I checked out Kosho-ryu kenpo but couldn't find any information on age requirements. However, your theory of young black belts being too young to teach adequately is defied by the biography of the 21st Grandmaster of your style (and I seriously mean no form of disrespect):

    "Born in Hawaii, at the age of four years old, James Mitose was sent to Japan to study the family art. The family art which had been the art of Chuan Fa (Chinese), Kenpo, or Kempo (Japanese) which Mitose Masters had modified successively, until it became Kosho - Ryu (old pine tree style) Kenpo. A complete system of self-defense (Kosho - Shorei) which includes religion and training in the arts and humanities in addition to the actual self defense techniques (Kosho - Ryu).
    Following fifteen years of training, James Mitose returned to Hawaii, deciding to share the family art with people of all races. Opening a school, he found that with the rigors of the system. Involving the training in religious philosophies in addition to actual fighting techniques, very few students mastered the system. (http://kosho-ryu_kenpo.tripod.com/)"

    If I do the math (as Yoda likes), that makes him a (4 + 15) 19 year old instructor WITH HIS OWN SCHOOL!

    As far as your warnings about going to a "kumite" and etc, I still fail to see where you will criticize a young black belt's fighting ability based only on his age. You know nothing else about him and I don't see why he shouldn't stack up to other 3rd dans.

    Keep in mind that in many of these "kumite" you refer to come complete with age/weight/rank divisions as well and tend to have certain rules. Unless of course, you were refering to the Frank Dux style "kumite" that we all have had so much access to. Where you advise him NOT to go to a 'kumite", I say "try out your skills at tournaments and competitions and test your skills."

    Yes, padded sparring and full contact can be a bit different, but even if you look at pictures from some of the legends you mentioned, you'll see them wearing mouthpieces, gloves, shin/instep guards, and so on. To compete in different styles, you need different training. We compete in Taekwondo. We also train for self defence.

    The name-dropping is pretty impressive, and it truly seems that your association with the upper crust of martial arts legends has earned you a great deal of humility towards younger students trying to follow in the footsteps of legends.
     
  14. Thomas

    Thomas Combat Hapkido/Taekwondo

    Some names:

    “When I was your age” from Black Belt magazine:

    http://w3.blackbeltmag.com/bbkids/yourage/benny/index.asp

    From http://w3.blackbeltmag.com/bbkids/yourage/wiwya8.asp An interview with Joe Lewis:
    Introduction: Joe is particularly famous for three accomplishments: He earned a black belt in three styles in less than one year, he created the sport of kickboxing, and he successfully made the transition from champion noncontact fighter to champion semi-contact fighter to champion full-contact fighter.
    Mr. Lewis’ words: "I started taking formal training in a couple different styles of shorinrya," he says. "In the first year, I made black belt in kobayashi-ryu, matsubayashi-ryu and Okinawan kempo."
    (Black belts in 3 styles in 1 year!)

    Benny Urquidez: I was born on June 20, 1952, right here in Los Angeles.
    BBFK: How long did you fight on the point circuit?
    Benny: I believe my first year was 1964 and my last 1973.
    (Let’s see… math wise that’s 1964-1952 = 12 years old and retired at age 21)

    BBFK: When did you begin competing?
    Rickson Gracie: When I was six. My father used to give me one gift if I won and two if I lost. That takes away the pressure of having to win. Everything changed when I turned 14. 1 was more knowledgeable of what I was doing and competition became more serious."

    The purpose of the above quotes is to illustrate that the time it takes and the age you begin to seek your black belt is NOT as important as your dedication and your ability.
     
  15. ptcruiser

    ptcruiser New Member

    Re: PTCruiser:

     
  16. Thomas

    Thomas Combat Hapkido/Taekwondo

    Yes, I would definately agree that some schools, and not just TKD, do milk students for a lot of money, esp. in testing, membership dues, and training fees. And it can be much worse in areas with little competition.

    The point I was tring to make with GM Mitose is that he was a young (19 yr old) martial artist held in such esteem that he had his own school. As you mention, if you look at his training records, he had a lot... but that confirms that TRAINING should be the deciding factor of a black belt, and NOT age.

    I think one of my points was misconstrued when I mentioned that I hope Labatt continues on to become a master with his own school. I didn't expect that to happen in the near furture. I know that even as a 3rd or 4th dan, it's pretty tough to have your own school. TKD has some age restrictions and a person would also have to learn how to run a school. Labatt, at age 15 as a 3rd dan, if he were to continue in TKD (as I hope), is looking at at least 4-5 years before 4th dan. At that point (18 or 19 years old), he would probably be recommended to become an assistant instrutor at another master's school, wher he would essentially intern for a while. After a few years of that, and only with a great record, could he hope to open his own school. This actually is one of the benefits of a heirarchy: limiting who becomes aschool owner until they've been proven. Can this be side stepped? Unfortunatley, yes.

    In closing, I think where sometimes TKD black belts are looked at as "inferior", I must remind people that comparing black belts ACROSS STYLES is not always accurate. In TKD, 1st dan essentially means to have mastered the basic curriculum and be ready for more intense training. Instructors are normally 3-5 th dans. As a 2nd dan, I work as an assistant instructor, mainly because of my background and experience and of course because we don't have many other higher ranked black belts in the area.

    Again the main reason I am defending TKD is because I have been picky about the schools I have trained at and they have all been good. Not all TKD schools are good and not all are bad. I just had seterotyping and generalizing based on style and not content. (That applies to all systems) If I ruffled any feathers, I heartily apologize.
     
  17. stump

    stump Supersub

    As I said i have trained with some very good TKD people.....they are the exception though I appreciate they do exist

    <<<In closing, I think where sometimes TKD black belts are looked at as "inferior", I must remind people that comparing black belts ACROSS STYLES is not always accurate. In TKD, 1st dan essentially means to have mastered the basic curriculum and be ready for more intense training. >>>

    Black belts are perceived as a universal standard...while I take your point surely the fact that a black belt in TKD is a lesser standard than other arts is something to be remedied?
     
  18. ptcruiser

    ptcruiser New Member

    Ptcruiser- been in it too long for my feathers to get ruffled. I hope I am challenging you readers to not reply from your feelings, that is the first sign of maturity.(not calling you inmature) lol to all
     
  19. johndoch

    johndoch upurs

    Quote Thomas - "By the way, the argument by JohnDoch about seeing other threads in other forums to see what is being said about “baby blackbelts” is pretty funny. First of all, we are discussing Taekwondo… other forums discuss other styles. The people who participate on other forums are probably not going to support Taekwondo in a rationale way because they are not Taekwondo practioners. Besides, just because someone says something doesn’t make it true. However, if we follow this logic, we can look in the “most dangerous martial art” thread and see that many people picked Muay Thai… which, by the way, offers instruction and full contact competition to juniors!"

    Eh? Did I say that, If you check back you'll see that this was said by ptcruiser.

    I've personally never bothered with gradings went Kickboxing for 2 years and only graded once so that I could spar. Kung fu 2.5 years I did grade twice. Sasma does grading about once a year which I have graded for.

    Over the course I've never been to a club long enough to be a BB but that doesnt bother me and I've missed plenty of opportunities to grade but thats not my goal.

    When we talk about a 3rd dan in less than 10 years it makes me wonder about the guys in the founding countries who probably work about ten years just to get to BB.

    BTW no feathers ruffled here mate :D
     
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2003
  20. Labatt

    Labatt New Member

    Im talking to my instructor tomorrow. I will let you know how it go's.
     

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