Herbalism

Yes because eating plants makes you invincible. :/

 

Well yes it does! If you don't know you wont get the knowledge here.

 

Oh my. I really REALLY hope you are joking!!

 

Do you REALLY! What you REALLY need to do is be a much better BS keyboard warrior! Come on no where in my original post does it say invincible. You have chose to say that to derail a sticky thread. By all means Su Lin or whom ever is the mod here you can delete all my post in this thread if need be. You are being a troll Tartovski and intentionally drawing a thread of topic.

 

No, I am intentionally calling you on the idea that traditional chinese medicine somehow grants the person who imbides it magical powers that means that they can suddenly spar hard without gear with no ill effects.
It's exactly this sort of nonsense that gives CMA a bad name. No medicine, conventional or otherwise is going to "allow" you to spar hard without gear without suffering the consequences.

If you think you've found some magic formula (and it would be magical, trust me) I'd like to know A) how this is achieved and B) Can you provide any reliable scientific evidence evidence to that effect. A randomised double blind placebo test will do nicely.

Mods: Feel free to split this thread if we don't want the derail here, but I can't stand by and let people encourage dangerous practises on the idea that you can take a magic potion to make it all better.

 

You win Tartovski you know you are right. You are a very good arguer and are always right, at least everyone you talk to probably thank you are. Because again you are right.

Please don't split anything I have written on this thread into a new thread. You can delete post 16,18,20 and 23 on down sense tartovski won the argument.

To help Tartovski feel better, if you choose not to delete my post just go ahead and ban me.

 

I can think of a few that might work, won't lesson the damage it's just you won't feel it.

 

I win! I win! :s
*ahem*
Or, you know, not.

Anyway, all i'm saying is that believing in tradional chinese medicine as some sort of elixiar is probably a bad idea. If you (or anyone) have some sort of evidence to the contrary i'd be happy to hear it, but from my personal experience the idea's of herbal medicine both british and chinese are based much more upon tradition, here-say, old wives tales, very poor understanding of biology and so on than they are based on any actual acceptable medical evidence.
That isn't to say herbal medicine is completely useless: Of course there may be some benefit from ingesting some plants, and the more trials done on these, the better. I believe Milk Thistle (silybum marianum) has been shown to have some favourable effects on liver function for exampe. However, let us not fall into the trap of approving things without evidence.

NB I am talking about herbal medicine here, not homeopathy. Homeopathy is something very different, and of course completely useless.

 

Actually Tartovski, if you do some research, you will find that many of the plants used in such approaches have active ingredients ,which is why many doctors now wish to know if their patients are using such things,since they may prescribe a medicine for a patient already using a "natural" remedy which contains that which the doctor would prescribe.Which could result in ods of a type.

Foxglove is a good example.Look it up.

Rhino horn, on the other hand, is garbage.Sympathetic magic.

And don't take comfrey internally!No matter what your herbal medicine guidebook says!

Anyway,it's not all old wives/New Age tales.Where do you think many modern drugs come from?Extracts or lab synthetics of recognized chemicals in plants.

Among others,Harvard Medical School has been doing quite a bit of research in this direction in the last 10-15 years.

But there is a lot of useless stuff to wade through, just like anything else.Including some of the over the counter remedies you can or could buy in your local store.

Disclaimer-not something I'm into personally-just think you're being a bit too dismissive.

However, I remember reading one guy saying that Chen.Fa-kor would practice for hours,then drink some herbal concoction and soak in some herbal bath.Writer felt that was why he was so good. And all this time I thought it was 'cause he practiced so much.

I agree we need more research all the time.Of course.I think it's rather amusing,in a morbid way, that some years ago in the 90s the FDA was working to outlaw all such herbal remedies in the US,while in recent years how many items have they just rubberstamped through for public consumption,only to be recalled due to adverse effects?Whatever happened to all the rigid testing and standards they used to demand?

Hey nready-no holding your breath 'til you turn blue!Stick around.

 

Didn't I say this already, that some plants will have some effect? I didn't mean to imply that they wouldn't, just that no medicine is going to make you invincible/suffer no ill effects from hard sparring.

St. John Wort is another classic one the doctors ask about, while we are on the subject.

I didn't say it was ALL old wives tales, just that the evidence for using herbal medicine is (by the vast majority) based on that, and not on clinical trials.

I'm only dismissive of anything that has no evidence behind it, simply that. As soon as i see a few decent trials, then i'll be convinced of a particular herbs usefulness.

I dated a girl for a long time who was doing a degree in herbal medicince, and I must say at first was interested and fascinated by what seemed to be a neglected idea. But then the more I was told, and the more I read up on myself, the more i realised how little evidence there was behind all of it. When I was told that they get taught (in all seriousness) how to diagnose using the four humours, was about the time I started realising how much crap gets peddled. And don't even start me on her friends who studied homeopathy degrees...

 

Interesting further example of someone making an unlikely big claim which people are perfectly right - in fact it is beholden on them as rational beings - to doubt, then implying that other people are in the wrong for not believing them, rather than just showing the evidence.

The key thing to look out for is that people are more than willing to make the claims, but extremely reticent to back them up with any kind of evidence... So why make, or even worse imply, the claim in the first place?

 

OK,sorry T-guess I lost some in translation on my end.What I read seemed more extreme than you meant it.

I too exercise my healthy skepticism as you do.As in "show me".

The four humours...are you kidding!?Didn't that go out in the 1800s?(In all fairness,that was part of "scientific" medicine at the time).

Whew-none of the folks into herbal medicines,including those that make them,that I've known ever talk about that sort of thing.And such people are rampant in my area.

And I'm not putting much stock in herbal potions or baths re MAs.Not too say that there may not be some supplements that may make one less inclined to bruising or something, but I would think that's about it.I mean,externally applied jow may be helpful in that regard to an extent, but nobody ever bathed in it before a match that I know of.

Hmmm-something that stimulated adrenal output before a match.....

 

In the spirit of challenging misconceptions... I sincerely doubt the FDA was looking to 'outlaw' herbal remedies probably just trying to get some sort of standards set (though this would have the effect of outlawing many herbal medicines). Also the rigid testing and standards are still there they just need to be enforced better which is why we should push for tighter regulation and better clinical trials. We shouldn't let drugs, herbal remedies or supplements slip past these requirements but currently the only one with any real regulation are the much maligned drugs.

 

I probably phrased my first post badly, hopefully I've cleared that up. I do find though that it's easier to start from the extreme sceptic view point and then move on from there, rather than counternancing all sorts of new age nonsense.

nope, deadly serious. As a caveat to that I will say that it was only one of the many diagnosis tools they were taught. On the other end of the scale they were also taught the same diagnosis skills that a normal GP would be taught, ie measuring blood pressure, heart rate etc looking for abnormalities etc etc.

As for it going out in the 1800's - i think it was well before that. Still, Chi and meridians are used in acupunture and that shows no signs of going away anytime soon.

Surely bathing in something is going to be completely pointless unless it can be absorbed through the skin? ie I don't think that herbs disolved in water are going to be absorbed (skin is imermeable to water, it's why ointments have an oil base).

 

This is really a rather ridicuouls discussion; nothing will make you stronger except your own hard work coupled with a consistent supply of what the body needs to build itself (supplements, herbs, diet, sleep, etc), so I dont want to get into it, but I would like to comment to 1 response, in defense of Herbalism:

Im a man of hard science and have made my living and spent the last 10 eyars of my life studying the hard sciences, which are used by virtue of wholly verifiable and -reverifiable data...So please keep that in mind when you read what I have to say:

As of today, there has been lots and lots of research and scientifically-sound trials, tests and studies on pretty much the entire Materia Medica. Laboratory-based testing has been performed to a very significant degree, identifying all the compounds in each herb, chemical structures, and such. Clinical trials, while at a more infantile state than lab-testing, still offers a myriad of well-designed double blind trials, etc etc etc that help to explain the actions and effectiveness of these substances, and its no wonder that these types of trials have led many pharmaceutical companies to create "drugs" from these substances.

If you pick up any decent materia medica, Captchuks Web, or a number of other sources, you can find references to studies, trials, pharmacological data, and herb-drug interactions on just about every page you flip to--This is real-world stuff, not a bunch of neo-mystical hippie chi hugger bullcrap. Ive posted a number of these sources here at MAP and given links back to them on a number of occasions but they usually get glossed over. If you want data, just pick up a Benskys Materia Medica, or Chens Chinese Herbology and Pharmacology, and flip to ANY page and read away. Or flip to Appendix E of Captchuks Web. Or email me and, if you ask nice, maybe Ill even photocopy a few pages for you...

 

Plumdragon: What's that saying about never trusting the evidence of someone trying to sell you something?

But seriously, it is great to know that slowly but surely there is more and more evidence out there for people who want it so we can seperate the stuff that really works from the stuff that doesn't.

 

CKava-not a misconception.Not a matter of standards-which is a problem,and a problem currently without a resolution in that who is going to pay the millions of dollars for the FDA testings?Not the FDA,and "Martha's Herb Shop" on the corner sure doesn't have the bucks.Anyway,I knew folks who were quite concerned about it at the time,and there were articles in the newspapers.Might have just been an offshoot of the US' drug war, which was very high profile,(and rather ridiculous when it came to burning money) at the time.After about a year it quieted down.

I'm certainly all for research, and wish more practitioners of these things would embrace it.Generally what I find is if findings are in in favor of their belief,they accept it,if it contradicts them (internal usage of comfrey is a good example in discussions I've had w/folks) it's discounted.An acceptance of research as the two edged sword it is seems sorely needed.

L-tryptophan was banned in the US because of one bad -(contaminated)- batch that was imported,and some people had very bad reactions.When I was a kid a guy died from a can of Campbell's soup that was poisoned but they didn't outlaw Campbell's.So why was L-T hysterically banned?

Y'know,logic doesn't always play into governmental actions.

Did you know around 1990,and this was a regular news story,that the FDA went into a high tech shop in California and seized their entire inventory of goggles which emit light to the wearer supposedly to alter ones brain waves to enhance/enable meditation?Spokesperson's quote was something along the lines of " These are untested drugs." "Cause they alter consciousness,supposedly.Anything (short of hyperventilation I guess) which causes alteration of consciousness may be classified as a drug in the rationale at the time.Maybe still, I don't really follow this stuff,just happen upon articles now and then

Money and politics do play a large role oftimes in this sort of thing.At least on this side of the pond.And it is observable over the years that certain uh, "interests" seem to have their potential loss of revenues protected or attempted to be protected,or looked into by the govt.Supposedly monopolies are illegal in the US.But last I knew,growing up on the farm, you can't grow hops for commercial use unless you are part of the cartel or whatever you want to call it.This may have changed with the craze for home brewing here,but I would be surprised.

Sorry. I live in a state that has banned shuriken, nunchaku, and slingshots.So bureaucratic attempts to ban/control things,whether herbal remedies or silly things like shuriken are quite common here in the US.If you lived here you wouldn't be surprised,except at the idiocy sometimes.(I mean,what,were the turf wars in the cities going from gun use to slingshots?Find me some logic in that ban).

Tartavski-What?Are you questioning the veracity of the great Jack Dempsey's method of soaking his hands in pickle juice to "condition" them????

Condition them to chew on when having beer and pretzels, I guess.

Humours were still "in use" in the late 1700s,so they must have been phased out in the 1800s.The Civil War was a turning point in medicine in the US, as the learned doctors had to come to grips with the fact that the lowly surgeons often knew much more about the human organism in practice than they did.

PD-that's what I was trying to impart to T in my first post.There's a lot of scientific evidence,and many pharmaceuticals come directly from or are the synthesized form of compound from plants.

 

Sounds pretty anecdotal to me...
Some people just want to make a quick buck...Others of us actually care about what we do and the impact we have on others. So while I understand you werel only joking with me, I take this topic seriously. There are plenty of well-respected individuals on this forum and others who can vouch for that.

Its been slowly but surely collecting for over 50 years now...

Most stuff gets verified and the actions of many classical formulas ar enow well understood, while some of the old stuff doesnt work like once thought, and it gets thrown out, and thats ok, because the real goal here is to help people with life, with health, and what I focus on...with their training.

 

Can you provide any links to studies online? I'd be interested to see any on dit da jow (or it's components) since that would be most useful to me if it does what is normally claimed for it.