Help with wrestling.

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Discussion' started by m1k3jobs, Mar 13, 2014.

  1. m1k3jobs

    m1k3jobs Dudeist Priest

    Ok, I coach kindergarten through 2nd grade kids in folkstyle wrestling. Kind of like herding cats. :)

    So, our season just ended and we did pretty well but I'm looking back at our coaching of techniques and thinking we need to make some changes, especially with 1st year wrestlers.

    So, what I saw was when you taught a technique correctly the kids would get caught up in trying to complete each step of the move rather than what the intent of the move was.

    For example: To do a reversal.
    1. Get wrist control
    2. Sit out to the side
    3. Use your free arm to go over the arm you have wrist control on and under the leg of the top wrestler.
    4. Lean back into the arm for leverage
    5. Spin around behind them.

    The problem is that a majority of the kids would get stuck at step 3. They would sit there trying to thread the arm, even if the top wrestler had collapsed his leg and there was no way to get the hand in there. Of course the top wrestler would either fold them in half or do a snap back.

    What I was thinking was simplifying the moves and focus more on the intent of either escaping or reversing. Something like:

    1. Wrist control if you can get it.
    2. Sit out.
    3. From sit out position pivot back to your down position and either stand up or drive into them. When you do this you are now at a 60 to 90 degree angle to the top wrestler.

    Focus on explosive moments and refine the technique as they get more experience.

    A simple set of base moves for 1st year wrestlers.

    Standing:
    Single or Double Blast takedown.
    Tie up with snap down.
    Tie up and trip or throw. I know trips and throws are more complex but getting a 7 year old to shoot is almost impossible, at least for the beginners. They want to tie up so teach them to do it right. Besides, I was a HW and that is natural for me as well :)

    Standing defense:
    Sprawl
    Crossface or push down on head.
    Cow catcher
    Tie up


    On bottom:
    Sit out / reversal like described above
    Knee slide stand up.
    Bridging. These kids can't do a real bridge so I was thinking a modified BJJ bridge (upa).
    Simply explode forward as fast as you can.

    From on top:
    Deep/Far arm.
    Far Knee
    half nelson
    chicken wing.

    Any advice or input appreciated.

    Thanks,
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2014
  2. m1k3jobs

    m1k3jobs Dudeist Priest

    C'mon guys, how about a little help here.

    Based on your experience as an instructor for kids in this age range 5-8 years old, does this seem like a reasonable approach?

    Your back ground doesn't have to be wrestling, any MA experience will do.

    Thanks,
     
  3. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    I don't actually teach kids so cannot help much - that said it seems like a solid foundation; nothing too fancy or overly complex

    Bread and butter basics is always the way to go...especially with kids
     
  4. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    I don't teach kids, or wrestling, but if I understand your "intent over technique" angle, I'd agree that can be a good way at times.

    Some moves are technical by their nature, and need to be learnt step-by-step to work.

    However, sometimes it is easiest to just say "do this" and, whether or not they succeed, observe carefully how they do it when not trying to concentrate on a series of technical steps. From this point, you can begin to refine and drip-feed technical points to help them elicit the effect.

    Effect is prime, then comes refinement.

    Is that the kind of thing you meant?
     
  5. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    I don't teach kids. When I was a kid, I was asked to train "1 step 3 punches and nothing else" for 3 years. It may be hard to teach your kids for just 1 throw in the next 3 years in any commercial school, but you can use "hip throw (or single leg, ...)" as the foundation and branch out from there.

    I strongly suggest to train your kids to learn "hip throw (or single leg, ...) and nothing else" for the next 6 months. They will appreciate you for the rest of their life. After 6 months, you will tell them to use "hip throw (or single leg)" as a fake to set up something else. Their wrestling knowledge will then start to grow.
     
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2014
  6. m1k3jobs

    m1k3jobs Dudeist Priest

    David, effect is prime is what I'm going for.

    It's not just teaching the moves it's getting them ready for tournaments. They compete almost every weekend from November through March. So what I would like to do is build the basics without getting too technical. I want them to build a good foundation but still have a shot at winning some matches.

    Oh yeah, I focus on the first year wrestlers.
     
  7. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    How many do you have to teach per class?

    The amount of time you can spend with each kid will determine how much you can tailor your coaching to the individual, or come up with a more generalist approach.
     
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2014
  8. Mangosteen

    Mangosteen Hold strong not

    Gotta agree with ykw and David - start with a basic movement for one month or two and go through the variations.
    At the beginning of each lesson go over the basic movement again.

    I agree though - with kids and any new trainee in any sport, intent is the main objective.
    Try to limit movements to 3 cues or less.

    So:
    - one main standing one main ground technique. Rotate monthly.
    - practice the most basic variation at the beginning of each lesson so they understand it (it will have transfer to any variation)
    - 3 cues or less
    - it's something in their movement pattern isn't broken then don't fix it (if they step in well naturally, don't point it out, just telling them "your doing everything good but remember to do this one cue)
     
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2014
  9. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    I guess if they're competing then they'll need a bare minimum of maneuvers. So you won't have the luxury of just getting one move down?

    I'm guessing takedown, pin and reversal?

    Personally, I'd go with very basic principles, see what their natural preferences are, then try to refine those with easy techniques.
     
  10. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Also, posture and grip-fighting I'm guessing should be prime considerations, and are principles that you can get working by intent over technical instruction to a fair degree.
     
  11. Mangosteen

    Mangosteen Hold strong not

    Weirdly wrestling is one of the few sports in which LTAD isn't on. Otherwise second graders wouldn't be at competition weekly.

    The good thing is that they'll quickly pick up on what works and what they're good at and will develop a lot of ability through competition.
     
  12. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Also, you've run into one of the problems of human learning: we tend to focus on the process rather than the effect, as you explained in your first example.

    Which is why I suggested (and you'd already cottoned onto) explaining the effect, or a short chain of 2-3 effects, and allowing their body to work out the process. Then you can introduce the bare minimum of technical instruction to minimise conscious deliberation during movement.
     
  13. TKDDragon

    TKDDragon Valued Member

    How is their grasp of fundamental movements? How long do you have to run a camp before your first competition? What I've found with youth coaching is that you have to simplify the play book so to speak. Focus on a few 3 or less core items to drill and get them trained before moving on to the next 2 or three. Nothing fancy or trick plays as such. When I coached 1st grade football last year we ran the same formation all year and our first two plays were power sweep and a play action pass off the same motion. We ran it for weeks before adding variants off it. Ever team we faced failed to stop it and we got better each week. Recycle the same motions as much as possible
     
  14. m1k3jobs

    m1k3jobs Dudeist Priest

    We will have a summer camp but a lot of the new wrestlers won't be there. That give us about 6 weeks befor the 1st tournament. 12 practices @ 2 hours per practice. Say 6 or so wrestlers that are first year, but they will have some training partners with 1 to 3 years experience.

    So starting program equals

    1. Blast double, easiest take down to do.
    2. Collar elbow tie with snap down or trip.
    3. Cow catcher, easiest way to stuff a shot.
    4. Knee slide to stand up for escape.
    5. Far arm - far knee for break down, they are almost the same move
    6. Half Nelson for pin.

    That covers the basics and gives a good foundation to build on for later in the season.

    Thanks for the help and ideas.

    Anything else or other suggestions or changes welcome.

    Man, I wish I had this when I was a kid.
     
  15. Mangosteen

    Mangosteen Hold strong not

    This is how we told to coach stuff for any movement in any sport or training:
    "Name of movement"
    *Silent Demo
    *Talked demo explanation of intent with three cues
    *Silent Demo again
    *Unresisted (unmoving opponent) practice
    *Unresisted moving opponent practice

    e.g.
    "now we're going to show you a blast double leg"
    *Silent demo showing main features of level change, penetration step, pull the back of the legs, face in chest
    *Talked Demo
    Intent: to floor the opponent
    3 cues:
    - change level
    - penetration step
    - pull the back of the legs
    *Silent demo again showing main features of level change, penetration step, pull the back of the legs, face in chest
    * Now they practice just the technique a few times without the opponent moving to understand the intent. at this point you can go round and correct things like "face in chest" if it's something they didnt pick up on naturally.
    * Then to develop tactics they attempt the same thing but with an opponent moving and changing levels but not resisting.
     
  16. Ben Gash CLF

    Ben Gash CLF Valued Member

    Wade Schalles show's an interesting teaching method on Killer Cradles.... he suggests starting with the finish and drilling backwards, so for a double leg for example drill
    Finish
    Drive and finish
    Turn the corner, drive and finish
    Shoot, turn the corner, drive and finish
    Level change, shoot, turn the corner, drive and finish
    Clear the hands, level change, shoot, turn the corner, drive and finish
    He recommends this especially for kids and says it stops you from having wrestlers with great setups and lousy finishes.
     
  17. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    I'd have to see that, sounds confusing!

    Though some piano teachers get students to learn pieces from end to start.
     
  18. Mangosteen

    Mangosteen Hold strong not

    The olympic weightlifting handbook we were given on coaching courses taught stuff in the "reverse chain" and we only start to incorporate it once the trainee understands the intent of the movement and can do something that kind of looks like it.
     
  19. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Makes more sense.

    Sounds identical to the piano theory - to prevent a strong opening and weak ending.

    I've found concentrating on different parts of a sequence in isolation to be helpful, never just done it in reverse though.
     
  20. m1k3jobs

    m1k3jobs Dudeist Priest

    I like the reverse teaching at least for takedowns. A big problem I saw with my kids and kids from other schools was by the end of the move they were either hugging the legs, no drive, or they started the shot from way too far out.

    So this approach would teach drive and correct distance 1st. I love it.
     

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