heel hook injuries

Discussion in 'Brazilian Jiu Jitsu' started by Late for dinner, Apr 2, 2017.

  1. Late for dinner

    Late for dinner Valued Member

    I've recently seen a lad with a torn ankle following a heel hook over enthusiastically applied during training. I know that the primary concern appears to be that one's ACL(or other knee structure) might be injured in a heel hook ( or other ankle/foot) attack.

    So my question is really sort of a poll. If you have had a bad experience with a heel hook (or other ankle/foot) attack can you indicate:

    1 was the problem in the foot/ankle
    2 was the problem in the knee
    3 were both areas affected.

    I'm just interested whether people , in training, feel that their knee , ankle or both are being affected. Can you please indicate if another, but related technique, was being used rather than the standard heel hook. Thanks

  2. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Moved on MAP 2017 Gold Award

    Not a heel hook but a figure four foot lock. I tapped and he didn't hear me, so I screamed. I was out for about 6 weeks and had to be really careful about coming back. It absolutely sucked. I had no lateral movement. Luckily it wasn't torn completely. Was really painful though. Had to skip work and everything.
  3. PointyShinyBurn

    PointyShinyBurn Valued Member

    Heel hooks and "other ankle/foot" submissions don't have a huge amount in common. It's certainly not the case that knee injury is the primary concern in a hyperextension footlock, for example.
  4. Late for dinner

    Late for dinner Valued Member

    Thanks, I appreciate what you are saying regarding heel hooks versus other foot/ankle techniques. I'm interested in what players have felt/experienced. As you have mentioned, they should be different . I would like to hear whether person's experience bares this out. Maybe both groups have more foot/ankle problems than expected.

    It is always interesting to see whether experience matches theory. That's all.

  5. Kurtka Jerker

    Kurtka Jerker Valued Member

    Tons of heel hooks, never been injured. I was stubborn on on toehold and got a partial ligament tear that took a few months to heal.
    Lots of knee injuries seen from guard jumps and osoto gari, though.
  6. Ben Gash CLF

    Ben Gash CLF Valued Member

    One of my students had a nasty ATFL injury from a toehold, but he is kinda accident prone. He once dislocated his patella doing a half guard sweep.
  7. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    Heel hooks and toe holds tend to generate the same type of injuries, as their mechanical action is similar.

    Ive always tapped early to them, and only with people with experience so no injuries from them to myself yet.
  8. PointyShinyBurn

    PointyShinyBurn Valued Member

    Really depends on the precise finish, with toeholds. The way I was first taught them, flexing the leg and bringing the toes towards the bum, tears ankle ligaments long before it targets the knee.
    My experience is what I'm talking about.
    There are at least six mechanically distinct submission attacks on the ankle/foot, might want to narrow down your question a bit?
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2017
  9. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    That is the same finish as Danaher teaches for heel hooks.

    But if they just rip it accross the chest, whilst your widely rolling, then it depends on what the weak link in the chain is.
  10. PointyShinyBurn

    PointyShinyBurn Valued Member

    Bit different, there's no bridging pressure into the side of the knee and their leg is much more flexed. You can even do it without controlling his hips at all like

    The heel-hookish method is better, generally.

    P.S. Better example:
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2017
  11. Late for dinner

    Late for dinner Valued Member

    Thanks for pointing this out. I was curious because the fighter that I treat had so obviously had an ankle injury rather than something else with the heel hook.

    I'm interested from more of a medical point of view to try to better understand the injuries that people walk in with and the mechanisms that caused them.

    Would it be possible for you to share your knowledge and outline the 6 different attacks?

    One problem for someone not participating in an activity is to understand the techniques being described enough to recognise when the term being used isn't the standard term. Also it is important to try to decided whether the injury being described is because of the technique or some particular personal weakness in the person affected.

    Things always make more sense/appear clearer to people who have experienced the variations and know how it feels! :' )

    Thanks for your input.

  12. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award


    ^ EC showing good heel hook mechanics.

    Quite often in rotational leg attacks, the weakest link in the chain will pop first.

    Has the patient got very strong knee ligaments?
  13. PointyShinyBurn

    PointyShinyBurn Valued Member

    I'll try to come back later and add some photo/video/further explanation for each of these, but quick and dirty they are:

    Outside Heel Hook (Ashi-garami position, 411, honey-hole etc.) (knee/ankle one way)
    Inside Heel Hook (50/50) (mostly knee in the other direction)
    Achilles lock (blade of the forearm attacking the calf muscle)
    Straight footlock (hypertension of the foot)
    Cross footlock (rolling the ankle inwards like the common running/walking injury)
    and the aforementioned old-school toehold (rotational pressure on the ankle)

    Those are the reasonably-high-percentage one I'm aware of. Your dedicated Sambo/Catch types might know more.
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2017
  14. Late for dinner

    Late for dinner Valued Member

    No thanks button so ..

    Thanks muchly

    :mad: )

  15. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    I remember back years ago during the birth of MMA in the UK a guy (I think it was Chin Weakasingh) got caught in a heel hook and rolled the wrong way to escape.
    If memory serves the result was damage to the ankle and foot ligaments, spiral fracture of the shin AND dislocated knee. Horrendous.
    Been scared of heel hooks ever since. :(
  16. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    Although looking at his record Chin fought a few weeks after his heel hook losses so maybe it was someone else that suffered a bad heel hook loss?

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