Hatsumi Grapples Multiple Opponents to the Ground

now that would be worth videoing, have you ever been hit by a train cus that what it feels like, last time he nearly knocked my teeth out and he was only hitting soft.

 

but im not a big tart like you is he really 60?

 

learn to throw a punch

 

THIS is why. I was heading towards a point. Next time search the thread instead of assuming. Copied and pasted for you.

=
Wow, I would say that some probably can and some probably cannot. It all depends on the individual. I also feel that is also depends on where they are in life and what path they are choosing. I do feel that most of the better martial practitioner's that I have encountered can control their temper and yet that might depend on the situation they find themselve in. Sorry to give a roundabout answer but everyone, martial practitioner or non martial practitioner is unique so there is no one cookie cutter answer to a question like that. [/QUOTE]



hmmm. Thanks for your quick response. Its interesting what you have just mentioned.

Now if most martial artist are known to control their temper and stay out of trouble,
I believe it is important for us Martial arts students to seriously do our best to figure out what the criminal mindset is and the individuals who are most likely to rob, mug, assault and even kill people.
For it is not only good to know one's own strength and weaknesses but also your aggressor's strength/weaknesses right.


Seriously I know it can be beneficial to practice different aspects of your own MA (i.e grappling, weapons, multiple attack scenarios, striking, etc) with not only students in your school BUT, ALSO STUDENTS OF OTHER STYLES OF MARTIAL ARTS.
This would test your ability and progress with decently skilled fighters/attackers who will not attack you during practice/sparring the way you are used to being attacked. Due to the fact they come from other styles per se. We need to be realistic in this aspect.


HOWEVER. I also believe we have to psychologically approach the martial arts in a realistic fashion.
We need to do our research and find out how many criminals on the street are MMA fighters and how many of them
grapple their victims to the ground into submission holds. Or how many FMA practicioners go out into town and carve out innocent victims. Or Wing Chun artists who jump out of bushes to assault unsuspecting strangers on a friday night for kicks.

More importantly we need to figure out how many criminals who study the martial arts out there go about looking for other martial artist of other styles to create challenge fights in dark alleys...

We also need to do some research concerning how many regular punks on the streets who have NO martial arts training can easily overwhelm stronger and bigger lone victims and stab him or beat him to death.

Now if we find out that the majority of criminals out there are not secretly taking martial arts on the weekdays and going out to kill people on saturday nights, we need to really stop and think for a second.

*****WHAT is our purpose for cross training with our techniques and skills vs students of other schools????****

A) Is it to prove that our style is better than any other school's style? and in turn fool proof for any street encounter?

or

B) Is it to prove to ourselves that our techniques are worthless because it didn't work on opponents who do other art? And that we should just quite what we are doing and go home and eat ice cream in a depressed mood?

or

C) We train with students of other styles of martial arts to see how our progress and material holds out against an attacker who is seriously resisting and not playing by OUR RULES. And then we do not go home with the belief that what we have been learning sucks but, instead we go home and analyze to ourself how we can change our approach to our training and what needs to be modified/changed/or completely taken out in order to make the martial art work for US????

Think about it like this.
Just because a guy who studies martial art #1 gets knocked out or grappled to the ground by a guy who does martial art #2 during a sparring match,
doesn't always mean that martial art #1's sytem is totally not worth it against attackers on the street. We need to also realize that a lot of aggressors on the street might not be all that great in the technique of fighting department BUT, they got that whole "do or die" attitude that makes them ever so more dangerous in a LIFE AND DEATH situation where almost anything goes. What it boils down to is, is martial arts #1 or what not meant for the student? Should he/she try another style that suites the individual's personality and body structure better?
Or should he/she approach their training differently?[/QUOTE]

Really you just want to add some unpredictability into your training every now and then. That is it.

 

You see when someone plays outside the rules ie. pulling a training knife out you simply do not have a response to it. That is why you above comment is so lame. This really is beneath me Flashlock as you cannot debate without personal attacks and also simply have no clue. Typical of your newness to the martial arts. Enjoy your fantasies as that is what they are.

 

jeez can't you people use the quote function properly


:woo: :woo:

 

You're entitled to your opinion. If that is what you want to believe, thats fine.

Easier said than done. It would certainly be more of a help to have some idea as to what to do rather than just winging it.

Thing with techniques is they are designed to teach fundamentals. I dont recall anyone saying anything was set in stone. Now, you say that you studied some Buj material, but seems to me that you were training with someone who they themselves didnt spend too much time training. So as I said before, if the person you're training with doesnt understand the basics, what makes you think you will?

Honestly, havent we been through all this before?

 

You're kidding right? If this is what you think, I'm sorry to say you are mistaken. If you dont think fine points are important, you may as well learn from a book. What do you think would be more important...someone taking 5 minutes to show you an armlock from the mount or really taking the time to show you how to make sure that the arm is secure, that you're in the best possible position to prevent a counter?

Hmm...I thought so to, but at times I'm getting the impression that your mind is already made up and that you're unwilling to listen to anyone elses views. Maybe I'm wrong, who knows.

 

hmmm. Thanks for your quick response. Its interesting what you have just mentioned.

Now if most martial artist are known to control their temper and stay out of trouble,
I believe it is important for us Martial arts students to seriously do our best to figure out what the criminal mindset is and the individuals who are most likely to rob, mug, assault and even kill people.
For it is not only good to know one's own strength and weaknesses but also your aggressor's strength/weaknesses right.


Seriously I know it can be beneficial to practice different aspects of your own MA (i.e grappling, weapons, multiple attack scenarios, striking, etc) with not only students in your school BUT, ALSO STUDENTS OF OTHER STYLES OF MARTIAL ARTS.
This would test your ability and progress with decently skilled fighters/attackers who will not attack you during practice/sparring the way you are used to being attacked. Due to the fact they come from other styles per se. We need to be realistic in this aspect.


HOWEVER. I also believe we have to psychologically approach the martial arts in a realistic fashion.
We need to do our research and find out how many criminals on the street are MMA fighters and how many of them
grapple their victims to the ground into submission holds. Or how many FMA practicioners go out into town and carve out innocent victims. Or Wing Chun artists who jump out of bushes to assault unsuspecting strangers on a friday night for kicks.

More importantly we need to figure out how many criminals who study the martial arts out there go about looking for other martial artist of other styles to create challenge fights in dark alleys...

We also need to do some research concerning how many regular punks on the streets who have NO martial arts training can easily overwhelm stronger and bigger lone victims and stab him or beat him to death.

Now if we find out that the majority of criminals out there are not secretly taking martial arts on the weekdays and going out to kill people on saturday nights, we need to really stop and think for a second.

*****WHAT is our purpose for cross training with our techniques and skills vs students of other schools????****

A) Is it to prove that our style is better than any other school's style? and in turn fool proof for any street encounter?

or

B) Is it to prove to ourselves that our techniques are worthless because it didn't work on opponents who do other art? And that we should just quite what we are doing and go home and eat ice cream in a depressed mood?

or

C) We train with students of other styles of martial arts to see how our progress and material holds out against an attacker who is seriously resisting and not playing by OUR RULES. And then we do not go home with the belief that what we have been learning sucks but, instead we go home and analyze to ourself how we can change our approach to our training and what needs to be modified/changed/or completely taken out in order to make the martial art work for US????

Think about it like this.
Just because a guy who studies martial art #1 gets knocked out or grappled to the ground by a guy who does martial art #2 during a sparring match,
doesn't always mean that martial art #1's sytem is totally not worth it against attackers on the street. We need to also realize that a lot of aggressors on the street might not be all that great in the technique of fighting department BUT, they got that whole "do or die" attitude that makes them ever so more dangerous in a LIFE AND DEATH situation where almost anything goes. What it boils down to is, is martial arts #1 or what not meant for the student? Should he/she try another style that suites the individual's personality and body structure better?
Or should he/she approach their training differently?[/QUOTE]

Really you just want to add some unpredictability into your training every now and then. That is it. [/QUOTE]

good point.

 

Arrogance? I think you should read some of the other posts, and perhaps you'll really see some of that. Let me ask you. If you grapple, do you choke everyone out every time you train? What about when applying an arm or leg or ankle lock? Do you follow through and injure that limb? I'd think that you'd stop. When I grapple, I like to mix up the routine a little. Some times I'll go slow and look for times when I may be able to reach the eyes. As Brian stated, rolling with a training blade, same thing.

I use protective gear when I train things like eye shots. Then again, how hard is it to hit the eye? I mean, if you can reach the face with a punch, hitting the eye shouldnt be that hard.

How do you train?

 

i think we have a photo somewhere where he had just punched me in the face, yes he's 60 and he smells that old!!

 

Re-read my post, I'm not right OR wrong.

All I did was summarise what flashlock was writing.

I made no value judgement on the quality or truth behind his statements.

The only statement I made was that I didn't read his intent behind this thread as being to 'troll'.

And I made that statement because the accusation of 'troll' was being thrown in his direction. I judged that to be innaccurate, given his apparent willingness to discuss his point of view.

As has been said many times before, if you aren't interested a thread topic, or don't want to engage with the person making the thread, the solution is simple.

Don't post on the thread.

However, if you do post on threads and you do decide to start throwing accusations of 'troll' about, then you are inviting the accused to continue posting.

 

i have already said to him many times people are prepared to talk to him about what he wants if he goes about it the right way but he chooses not to and yet again this has turned into the usual BJJ v BJK groundfighting thread.

 

this isnt trolling??

 

I just want to know from the folks who bandy about the term fallacy because it sounds cool, how if we fight how we train, how do they train eye gouging? If we fight how we train, do they fight at 50% resistance? I realize that most of us here in MAP could recite this entire thread in our sleep, but I've never heard Brian's rationale.

Also, I'm genuinely intrigued by the idea of someone cross training in the bujinkan AND BJJ. It seems to be an unlikely combination, but Brian, what rank do you hold in BJJ? Do you find that your BJJ helps in any way your BJK training or is it just for fun, so you can roll with the boys every once in awhile as you suggest in your previous posts?

Edit: Seems I attributed some of Dark Shadow's arrogance and triteness to Brian. I'm still genuinely interested in your BJJ training, Brian and how you think it integrates into your FMA and other training.

Dark Shadow, it's your opinion on fighting how we train that I'm very curious about. How do you train these things? Thanks.

 

Keikai, by necessity, any attempt to spark conversation is trolling. Without a certain degree of disagreement, there would be nothing to talk about.

Think of Flashlock as MAP's resident Heel in the classical Professional Wrestling sense of the word: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heel_(professional_wrestling)

Some of the most interesting and popular wrestlers ever were heels.

 

Wow as to the fallacies in his arguments where to start. Actually what is funny is that I agree with Flashlock on some things. It is just his perspective that is off base and his ability to not understand that BJJ simply does not have all the answers. When a training knife is brought into play or someone talks about something out of the typical BJJ rule set then he simply does not have an adequate answer. BJJ was once a small community when I started now it has exploded and there are lots of BJJ schools and the BJJ mcdojos are starting to pop up as well. As to where and who I have trained with. Well first off I train every day and roll during the week regularly. On my site you will find The Warrior Way martial arts academy run by Harvey Berman. During my time there I trained with Harvey, Don Daley II, TJ Yakubar, Caqiue, Roker Gracie, Royce Gracie and a whole lot more. Then when I moved I have brought multiple BJJ instructors up to Alma to train at my school for seminars ie. one of them absolute best unknown BJJ practitioner and instructor Ken Blackburn. Right now I continue to bring people up as well as hit seminars regularly. Yet I do not limit myself to just BJJ seminars as that would give me only one perspective. Regularly I also am not afraid to go roll at a different Training Hall to get some new perspective. Now I have plenty of training partners at my Training Hall and they are all free thinking and many are very, very experienced some even with decades as a martial practitioner. So I hope that helps you understand where I come from and you can see my bio here: www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com

Now as to the newaza of the Bujinkan well it is not as sophisticated as BJJ. (yet the movement has similarities) Yet it is less limited in what you can do. ie. dirty tricks. That is a strength of it and something that some people cannot understand or will not. Personally the movement of BJJ though helps with your Budo Taijutsu grappling as they complement each other very well in my opinion. A Budo Taijutsu practitioner can learn alot from a BJJ practitioner and vice versa.

Finally there is in my opinon no one way that works all the time and no one system that covers all the bases it is good to have a very strong foundation and yet see what other people are doing as well in other systems as well as what is being taught to criminals in the yards, etc.

In the end we train to be prepared to protect ourselves and our loved ones and hopefully in the moment that will be possible.

 

Thanks for the response, Brian. From my perspective, it sounds like we agree almost completely. I checked out your site and you have a lot going on. The fact that you crosstrain speaks volumes, in my opinion.

I don't typically get involved in this particular debate because it is old, but as I went back, your posts were largely well reasoned.

I also think that Flashlock brings up many good points in this thread. Flashlock, let me know if I get anything wrong here. I don't want to put words in your mouth.

First, he points out, perhaps not quite in this way, the quasi-religious nature of the BJK. Students in the bujinkan will spread the faith, so to speak, that when fighting against multiple opponents, one should NEVER go to the ground. Ergo, BJJ is useless on TH3 57R337. In a similar way, the Catholics avow that the Earth is center of the universe until the Pope says, "I meant that in a more spiritual sense. Sheesh." You've been around forums before, but not here on MAP. The argument has been made numerous times here by many of the people now revising history and saying that WE misunderstood them.

He also seemed to be entertained by the idea that some of the posters here who have in the past dismissed groundfighting as impractical and unsafe are now alleging that groundfighting has always been a part of their curriculum.

Secondly, I think he's arguing the "fight how we train" line of reasoning. I think we all agree that this is so. It's the line of reasoning that leads some members of this forum to conclude that somehow sparring, competing and essentially not training with resistance is closer to fighting.

Edit: Just to add, regarding BJJ McDojos, the only ones I've heard about are the ones where people who have no legitimate BJJ training incorporate it into their curriculum. It's inevitable with it's current popularity that there will be BJJ mcdojos, but in my opinion, as long as the community remains close knit and competitors interact frequently, this won't happen. Judo remains effective, even though it is a specialized art, for this very reason. It's hard to find bad judo training.

 

First off, I appologize if I gave that arrogant attitude as you state. There was no intention on my part. As for your question: I believe I replied further up to your other post in this thread, but I'd be happy to reply again.

As I stated, if you can reach the face with a punch, it shouldnt be hard at all to reach the eyes. Wearing MMA gloves will allow you to punch and target the eyes. Eye protection is worn. During grappling, as I said, I like to mix up the pace, what is worked on, etc. Sometimes I'll go at a slower pace. You can still do punches and or open handed strikes. I may choose to, while in the mount position, place my hands/fingers near the eyes. This can be done from the guard too. Despite going slower, it gives my partner something else to think about. Like I've said, I dont like to refer to any move as a fight stopper. If I miss that eye shot, but it causes the other person to bring their hands up, it opens other options up for me.

 

Thanks for the response, Dark Shadow.

Couple of thoughts. First, are you saying that you strike the eye or you are gouging the eye from some sort of standing lock? Striking the eye doesn't sound very high percentage to me, and would seem to be inviting a broken finger.

If otherwise, from a standing lock or from mount, do you think that you could do this against someone with grappling training, such as a wrestler, BJJ, sambo or judo? First, do you think you could attain mount? Second, do you think you could maintain it for any length of time?

It's back to that question of how you train.