Hatsumi Grapples Multiple Opponents to the Ground

Well, its like I said earlier. The longer someone spends in an art, the better the understanding they'll have. In this case, flashlock does not seem to have spent much time learning the finer points of the arts he's has claimed to study.

I may be wrong, but that is just my observation.

I'm not disagreeing with your comments. I feel they're right on the mark.

 

One thing that is really nice about Budo Taijutsu is the mind set of not playing by the rules. Anybody who is in a sport and finds themselves outside their element, (ie. different rules) knows just how dangerous that can be. [/QUOTE]

You've got things reversed, Brian. There are more rules in Budo Taijutsu. If you really think about the differences in the training, you'll understand.

BJK guys don't spend an hour 2-3 X a week fighting. Instead, they do an attack then freeze while the other guy "practices his technique". There are unsaid rules: 1. pull back strikes 2. freeze in last attack position while the defender counterattacks 3. pretend eye gouges, groin hits, and a hundred other "killer moves" they have never actually ever done to anyone in real life but expect will help them in a real battle (insanity!).

Contrast this with BJJ where we are really fighting and going at it full force, stopping only when the person taps or cries out. Eye gouges... we've all read the other threads, no need to go into that garbage again.

BJJ's hard, very real training has much fewer rules and restraints than BJK training where it counts.[/QUOTE]

Flashlock the fallacies in your debating sometimes amaze me. Having said that I actually enjoy the debate. Okay I am not totally a Budo Taijutsu practitioner and have practice BJJ and still roll regualrly with my students and friends. Having said that I do not always play within the rule sets and the last time I was rolling with friends I pulled a training folding knife during our session and my partner (BJJ insert Teacher and high rank) was finished before he knew what happened. So then we played and I showed him how to counter a few things when grappling with the knife. (note that you need the skill and a little luck to pull it off) We both had a good time in other words as he learned something and in return showed me some cutting edge BJJ moves. BJJ is a specialist grappling art. That is a fact and a particularly kind of grappling as in takedown and positional dominance. (it is also a strength of BJJ)

Most BJJ Blackbelts are willing to step and up and take on a challenge quickly and right away and yet within that challenge they want certain rules to apply. Most people geared towards self defense/personal protection are going to do what has to be done in the moment. If attacked a serious practitioner of personal protection skills is going to do what is necessary to return home. That could be neutralizing a threat with a firearm, Blade, blunt object or down to empty hands. Personally I prefer to work always from a position of advantage whether with a tool (which is preferable) or with empty hands.

As to BJJ there is also an emphasis on technique training as well and then rolling within the BJJ or MMA rule set. Is it a very good specialized grappling art? Absolutely! Is it real combat or personal protection skills........ know it is not. Can it translate - Yes! However anytime you play within a rule set you set yourself up to realisticly defend yourself within that rule set and that could hamper you in the moment.

As always it is interesting to debate!

 

As always it is interesting to debate![/QUOTE]

Sorry to interupt your flow but, I would like to ask a quick question.

By your own personal experiences and accounts.

Would you say that most of the martial artist you have met in your life are law abiding citizens and can control their tempers???

 

Sorry to interupt your flow but, I would like to ask a quick question.

By your own personal experiences and accounts.

Would you say that most of the martial artist you have met in your life are law abiding citizens and can control their tempers???[/QUOTE]

Wow, I would say that some probably can and some probably cannot. It all depends on the individual. I also feel that is also depends on where they are in life and what path they are choosing. I do feel that most of the better martial practitioner's that I have encountered can control their temper and yet that might depend on the situation they find themselve in. Sorry to give a roundabout answer but everyone, martial practitioner or non martial practitioner is unique so there is no one cookie cutter answer to a question like that.

 

Wow, I would say that some probably can and some probably cannot. It all depends on the individual. I also feel that is also depends on where they are in life and what path they are choosing. I do feel that most of the better martial practitioner's that I have encountered can control their temper and yet that might depend on the situation they find themselve in. Sorry to give a roundabout answer but everyone, martial practitioner or non martial practitioner is unique so there is no one cookie cutter answer to a question like that. [/QUOTE]



hmmm. Thanks for your quick response. Its interesting what you have just mentioned.

Now if most martial artist are known to control their temper and stay out of trouble,
I believe it is important for us Martial arts students to seriously do our best to figure out what the criminal mindset is and the individuals who are most likely to rob, mug, assault and even kill people.
For it is not only good to know one's own strength and weaknesses but also your aggressor's strength/weaknesses right.


Seriously I know it can be beneficial to practice different aspects of your own MA (i.e grappling, weapons, multiple attack scenarios, striking, etc) with not only students in your school BUT, ALSO STUDENTS OF OTHER STYLES OF MARTIAL ARTS.
This would test your ability and progress with decently skilled fighters/attackers who will not attack you during practice/sparring the way you are used to being attacked. Due to the fact they come from other styles per se. We need to be realistic in this aspect.


HOWEVER. I also believe we have to psychologically approach the martial arts in a realistic fashion.
We need to do our research and find out how many criminals on the street are MMA fighters and how many of them
grapple their victims to the ground into submission holds. Or how many FMA practicioners go out into town and carve out innocent victims. Or Wing Chun artists who jump out of bushes to assault unsuspecting strangers on a friday night for kicks.

More importantly we need to figure out how many criminals who study the martial arts out there go about looking for other martial artist of other styles to create challenge fights in dark alleys...

We also need to do some research concerning how many regular punks on the streets who have NO martial arts training can easily overwhelm stronger and bigger lone victims and stab him or beat him to death.

Now if we find out that the majority of criminals out there are not secretly taking martial arts on the weekdays and going out to kill people on saturday nights, we need to really stop and think for a second.

*****WHAT is our purpose for cross training with our techniques and skills vs students of other schools????****

A) Is it to prove that our style is better than any other school's style? and in turn fool proof for any street encounter?

or

B) Is it to prove to ourselves that our techniques are worthless because it didn't work on opponents who do other art? And that we should just quite what we are doing and go home and eat ice cream in a depressed mood?

or

C) We train with students of other styles of martial arts to see how our progress and material holds out against an attacker who is seriously resisting and not playing by OUR RULES. And then we do not go home with the belief that what we have been learning sucks but, instead we go home and analyze to ourself how we can change our approach to our training and what needs to be modified/changed/or completely taken out in order to make the martial art work for US????

Think about it like this.
Just because a guy who studies martial art #1 gets knocked out or grappled to the ground by a guy who does martial art #2 during a sparring match,
doesn't always mean that martial art #1's sytem is totally not worth it against attackers on the street. We need to also realize that a lot of aggressors on the street might not be all that great in the technique of fighting department BUT, they got that whole "do or die" attitude that makes them ever so more dangerous in a LIFE AND DEATH situation where almost anything goes. What it boils down to is, is martial arts #1 or what not meant for the student? Should he/she try another style that suites the individual's personality and body structure better?
Or should he/she approach their training differently?

 

I don't believe BJJ is just a "sport art". Firstly, it was designed and tested in real combat, the rules came after to stop people getting hurt and killed (which was happening in the streets of Brazille). Secondly, the sports aspects (points for certian positions) reflect advantages you would have in a real fight--they're not arbitrary.

Many BJJ guys just like the sporting aspect of it, but not everyone!

As for the multiple attackers... I mean, come on! What's to study? You run, push away, maybe you have enough wits to try to throw one into another... but if you're surprised vs 2 or more attackers who are smart enough not to get into one another's way, you are in BIG trouble whether you "trained" it or not!

Weapons... most of what I've seen from the BJK is unrealistic because the attacks (club, knife, etc) are too telegraphing, slow, and committed. Look up Vunak on youtube to see what would really happen to you if someone wanted to slash you to ribbons.

In your training, how often can you go 95% with your fighting? How often are you not sure who will be victorious?

Aikdio is the extreame on one end... I think BJK isn't much more alive. I've done Taijutsu and I've done BJJ: just try it for yourself and you will see what I'm talking about (the difference is huge).

That's the right way to think about it... but how many "demonstrations" or training sessions end with the opponent acting like his stomach exploded from a snap kick to his thigh, that his eye balls are dangling from his face because you skittered your fingers near his sockets, or that he taps out from an arm lock? That kind of cartoon reaction happens from not really being alive enough.

 

How does admitting there is not good answer to multiple attackers equate to you not having any chance? Earlier in the thread, I pointed out two people in my BJJ club who survived attacks vs multiple opponents.

Please, enlighten me... what are the "pretty good answers out there in other arts" to overcome multiple opponents?

 

Just because you "understand" an art doesn't mean you understand fighting.

"Finer points" have their place, and they go toward "perfection". Finer points and "understanding" are unnecessary to fight. If you have to spend more than 10 minutes studying a technique before you can perform it at all, you shouldn't bother with it, you'll never be able to do it in a real fight. If, artistically, you want to perfect it... fine, just understand you don't need to.

You can become one hell of a fighter with basic techniques in about 3 months (if you're already fit). There are "street fighting" systems out there that by-pass the "perfection" "fine points" of martial arts and cut right to the knees, elbows, and headbutts which will devastate your opponent.

I'm sure you could cut 75% of BJK techniques and have a stripped down, fast system geared only toward fighting. You would lose the art-side, but that side doesn't go into fighting much!

As I've said, I'm not a believer in "finer points" especially if they are necessary to make a technique work... seems to me like more of an excuse than anything!

Hm. I'm very taken aback by this statement, Shadow. I thought we were being honest and having a real debate... and now you're insinuating I'm insincere and, basically, stupid. If I thought that's all you thought of me, I wouldn't have bothered with you... hope I'm wrong.

 

Flashlock you got a point. A part of martial arts has to do with mindset and intent.
What you put in to it is what you get out of it.

 

Oh brother. I'll risk being called a nutrider just to ask you how exactly do you train to kick each other in the groin or poke each other in the eye?

I don't tend to ask these questions because they've been asked before. It's a tired conversation, frankly and has been done before. But for some reason, you're arrogance and self importance compel me. Maybe it's that you're consistently presuming to suggest how "they" feel, what "they" think, and how "they" would react in a fight. If you were really interested, you might choose to actually ask, as I am asking you. How do YOU train? What kind of exercises do you do? As you say, you fight how you train... how do YOU train? I'm very curious. How often? Do you actually get into fights? If you fight how you train, you must train in a very dangerous manner indeed.

 

If you and I were rolling, and you pulled a rubber knife on me, I'd shake your hand afterwards... then I'd kick you in the balls and shout, "Gotch, mofo!" Then, after you stop writhin on the mat in agony, I'd show you how to avoid getting struck in the balls during a handshake... you need skill, and a little luck.

Umm... congratulations?

What are you going on about "specialized grappling art"--like BJJ is some weird sub-genre of fighting with no real applications to true combat. You are going to honestly say that BJJ people can't defend themselves in a street assault? I don't know who you've "rolled" with, but you don't know jack squat--this is the danger when someone tries to develop their own system without adequate experience in self-defense.

The whole point of this, I guess, is that you think BJJ has so many rules that it interferes with real combat. I've stated that Taijutsu has even more rules, rules that really interfere with true combat because they can't go 100% with their techniques. That's more important than going for eye gouges you never complete.

And I've got some news for you, bucko, BJJ guys break the damn rules every chance they get--there's a lot the ref can't see!

It must be difficult keeping paying students since you've killed so many with your ruleless training. :Alien:

 

Sorry to interupt your flow but, I would like to ask a quick question.

By your own personal experiences and accounts.

Would you say that most of the martial artist you have met in your life are law abiding citizens and can control their tempers???[/QUOTE]

Why on earth are you posting this here? :topic:

 

Brian. Flashlock is a little half-cocked sometimes, but could you point out the fallacies in his arguments? Countering an argument doesn't necessarily mean that the argument is fallacious.

Cool. You train in BJJ, as well? Could you be so kind as to say where? BJJ is a pretty tight community, just like the Bujinkan (as I understand it). Who is your instructor? I think that it would be very cool to hear more about your perspective as a Bujinkan AND a BJJ practitioner!

 

Why on earth are you posting this here? :topic:[/QUOTE]


THIS is why. I was heading towards a point. Next time search the thread instead of assuming. Copied and pasted for you.

=
Wow, I would say that some probably can and some probably cannot. It all depends on the individual. I also feel that is also depends on where they are in life and what path they are choosing. I do feel that most of the better martial practitioner's that I have encountered can control their temper and yet that might depend on the situation they find themselve in. Sorry to give a roundabout answer but everyone, martial practitioner or non martial practitioner is unique so there is no one cookie cutter answer to a question like that. [/QUOTE]



hmmm. Thanks for your quick response. Its interesting what you have just mentioned.

Now if most martial artist are known to control their temper and stay out of trouble,
I believe it is important for us Martial arts students to seriously do our best to figure out what the criminal mindset is and the individuals who are most likely to rob, mug, assault and even kill people.
For it is not only good to know one's own strength and weaknesses but also your aggressor's strength/weaknesses right.


Seriously I know it can be beneficial to practice different aspects of your own MA (i.e grappling, weapons, multiple attack scenarios, striking, etc) with not only students in your school BUT, ALSO STUDENTS OF OTHER STYLES OF MARTIAL ARTS.
This would test your ability and progress with decently skilled fighters/attackers who will not attack you during practice/sparring the way you are used to being attacked. Due to the fact they come from other styles per se. We need to be realistic in this aspect.


HOWEVER. I also believe we have to psychologically approach the martial arts in a realistic fashion.
We need to do our research and find out how many criminals on the street are MMA fighters and how many of them
grapple their victims to the ground into submission holds. Or how many FMA practicioners go out into town and carve out innocent victims. Or Wing Chun artists who jump out of bushes to assault unsuspecting strangers on a friday night for kicks.

More importantly we need to figure out how many criminals who study the martial arts out there go about looking for other martial artist of other styles to create challenge fights in dark alleys...

We also need to do some research concerning how many regular punks on the streets who have NO martial arts training can easily overwhelm stronger and bigger lone victims and stab him or beat him to death.

Now if we find out that the majority of criminals out there are not secretly taking martial arts on the weekdays and going out to kill people on saturday nights, we need to really stop and think for a second.

*****WHAT is our purpose for cross training with our techniques and skills vs students of other schools????****

A) Is it to prove that our style is better than any other school's style? and in turn fool proof for any street encounter?

or

B) Is it to prove to ourselves that our techniques are worthless because it didn't work on opponents who do other art? And that we should just quite what we are doing and go home and eat ice cream in a depressed mood?

or

C) We train with students of other styles of martial arts to see how our progress and material holds out against an attacker who is seriously resisting and not playing by OUR RULES. And then we do not go home with the belief that what we have been learning sucks but, instead we go home and analyze to ourself how we can change our approach to our training and what needs to be modified/changed/or completely taken out in order to make the martial art work for US????

Think about it like this.
Just because a guy who studies martial art #1 gets knocked out or grappled to the ground by a guy who does martial art #2 during a sparring match,
doesn't always mean that martial art #1's sytem is totally not worth it against attackers on the street. We need to also realize that a lot of aggressors on the street might not be all that great in the technique of fighting department BUT, they got that whole "do or die" attitude that makes them ever so more dangerous in a LIFE AND DEATH situation where almost anything goes. What it boils down to is, is martial arts #1 or what not meant for the student? Should he/she try another style that suites the individual's personality and body structure better?
Or should he/she approach their training differently?

 

I don`t see much of a learning curve on this thread. I see only one point being made by flashlock: You can go to the ground with multiple attackers.
Ok.

The rest of the time I see you don`t understand our art on both sides.
And I see no problem with Norman`s statement what so ever, why are people pickering. I think both arts are good at what they do.

Why is it that BJJ or MMA or whatever other art always brings up some weird stuff about cult attitude, when I see some BJJ guys having the same cult attitude.

Jibasu! What the hell is the big deal?
Let`s see both arts take on a gernade or RPG or a tank, or an airstrike. Grapple that, muto dori out of that!
Now, people think about it.
Most of us won`t have to ever use any of our actual training (in regards to fighting). I really think we all could use some more training on both, but it depends on your own style of fighting and your body type and the like. We all should just train our butts off!

Now, we can learn for other arts to close off gaps or weaknesses in our personal styles. But, luck is the biggest part of fighting and skill is realizing when luck is happening and when you are getting lucky ( with women I haven`t figured this out yet, I need more practice). Now train dabnabit!

 

for me Al Bundy can answer that one, he's my favourite uke, yesterday i crushed his testicles with the end of a bo while doing a tsuki!!

 

If that's all you can see, I can't help you! Re-read Xen's post several times, then get back to me...

I don't understand that sentence from ANY side... what the heck do you mean?

Well, I'm not trying to say here that BJJ is better than BJK. The point is that you BJK people better shut the hell up about "going to the ground is the worst thing you can do, especially vs multiple opponents." Every time you guys say that, I'm posting the link to this Hatsumi video.

Secondly, and much more importantly, is the point that you should look beyond "your" traditions--even locally, on this stinkin' forum, you guys all huddle together and rarely deign to debate/ chat/ or train with people outside your group.

Next weekend Rubber Tanto and I are planning to train together. He wants to work on his ground game, and I'd like to see how I can defend against his taijutsu.

If you want to find weakspots in your game, train with a stranger who does a different art! It's like when you write, you need an objective editor, because you are blind to your own crap.

If you just hide away mainly in your BJK dojo... you're missing out for yourself, and to help people outside of BJK. Many of you are so reactionary (I'm being kind) that you think I'm your enemy. Come down to the BJJ club! You'll learn something. I'm happy to go to a BJK club, I'll learn something.

I think the main message of Hatsumi in that clip is to do just that!

How can you train with others if you can't even debate others honestly in an internet forum? Unlike you guys, next week I'll be training with a taijutsu guy. I have no idea what is going to happen, if I can help him with his ground game at all, if he's got an open mind toward my criticism of BJK or what. But by me being open to that, I feel I'm working in the spirit of what Hatsumi was saying more than most of you self-described students of him.

As for "training dabnabit"... this is training, too.

 

i would just like to ask all those who really think you could deal with multiple attackers,
Do you think you could fight even two of yourselves? what then if your instructor jumped in as well? and his mate? now what if those same attackers were all 13 or midgets?

i guess im trying to say that even IF someone or some system provided a logical effective means of dealing with m/a it will always still depend upon the attackers ability/intention/weapons/numbers.

anecdotal story coming up

My brother and cousin were attacked as they left a pub by a group of around 15 guys, they tried to run but my brother got caught trying to jump a fence, dragged down, bottled, and kicked the crap out of, he had studied martial arts for around 5 years at this point. We were all just thankfull they were drunken fools who diddnt beat him to death but we think there were just too many to effectively hit him at once

also you ask for proof of bjj's ability to deal with multiple attackers without providing your own well as has been stated elsewhere i will instead offer a direct quote from the gracies "we believe that no system effectively addresses the question of how to deal with multiple attackers, infact they are something like ghosts with many people claiming they are real without actually seeing one/proving they are real"

 

oh yeah i almost forgot Kouryuu im very close to you, would like to meet up for a spar or something if possible as im always looking to gain news experience with different styles, pm coming your way

oops my bad im sorry Kouryuu i just saw your profile, wont be sparring with you then

 

no, sorry, Xen is wrong on this one.