Hatsumi Grapples Multiple Opponents to the Ground

I am loving the takedowns, specially with the multiple attackers. Beautiful!

I'd like to see them work in live sparring, though.

 

Flashlock- BJJ doesn't have a copyright on groundfighting, dude. Most old styles of Jujutsu were SOLELY based on throwing/grappling, since striking is difficult in heavy armor.

Now, if Hatsumi-sensei donned a blue, multi-patched gi, applied a jumping triangle choke, transitioned to an oomaplata from a resisted armbar, then leaped up and said "I Ownz Joo!"...

...then we might have an issue.

 

LMAO I'm so tempted to sig that

 

hahahahahahaha... ZOMG THEY WENT TO THE GROUND!! BJJ RULEZ!!

 

I'm not sure who you are trying to argue against or even what you are trying to argue. Why would it be a bitter pill that there's a video of stuff that I've been training in since I started in '92?

 

Its good to know a bit of everything here and there. Just in case a scenario comes along where you are not given the chance to
use what you are accustomed to.

So striking is good to learn, as well as grappling/Chin-na, weapons, multiple attackers, guns, etc etc.

Of course, there is also the principle of focusing on 1 art first and allowing it to root with you and become 1 with your being
before you go onto any other art...

 

Flashlock is most likely attempting to discredit the Buj, however, his posts have more holes than a piece of swiss cheese. He states that Hatsumi took his opponents to the ground. He states that people in the Buj say that you shouldn't go to the ground with multiples. What he fails to see in this clip, is that Hatsumi is not grappling with them like you would see in the UFC.

Nothing wrong with grappling. I do it myself. There is a big difference between taking someone to the ground and getting back to a better position and cuddling with them for 20 minutes.

 

You know, you can attack and mock me, but there's the video clip in living color, there's Hatsumi speaking and demonstrating... everyone can make their own conclusions.

 

Sadly Flashlock, the issue is, is that you're only seeing it the way you want to. Did he take them to the ground? Yes he did. What he did not do was get into the mount position, the guard or the sidemount and spend time looking for a submission.

 

Yeah, he didn't mount one so the other could attack him. You see, in BJJ, no matter what is going on, we have to go into a mount or guard. We like to get bashed in the head by one opponent while we try to submit the other one. We don't train to get away and survive--we're not interested in enduring--all that matters is points (on the matt or for self-defense).

Boy, BJJ people are so stupid. They would have gotten KILLED in that situation!

 

Ironic though, every BJJ fight that you see video footage of, is 1 on 1. I wonder why.

I read alot of forums. I see post after post after post with people bashing arts. Funny though, as I can't seem to recall anyone from the Buj going to the MMA sections and bashing them. MMA has some great things but it is by far not the end all be all of training.

 

I never said Hatsumi was doing BJJ.

I didn't bash your art. I praised your teacher and said you guys need to follow what he says--be more open and less isolated.

Unlike you, who have obviously not done any BJJ with a qualified instructor, I have worked with one of the best BJK people in history; I've also studied the techniques with a qualified instructor, and tested them vs non-BJK martial artists.

So why the aggro against me? I'm actually trying to help, or at least show none - BJK members that, although a lot of Hatsumi's students are weirdos, he's actually quite awesome and open-minded. (He has a rich, broad background in the martial arts before he ever even heard of Takamatsu... think about that.)

 

Neither did I. Where did you get that impression? Interesting how you can't address my comment on the 1 on 1 fights that you see in BJJ. When was the last multiple attack BJJ clip posted on youtube? Oh thats right, I havent seen one.

Actually your post was a hidden attempt to bash the art.

If that is what you want to think, more power to you.

Why the aggro towards you?? Whats aggro? Did you mean aggression? If that is what you meant, no aggression intended. I do find it interesting that the Bujinkan takes alot of heat for what they do, mostly from people who probably have not spent any quality time. Above you stated that you have spent time working with a qualified instructor to learn BJJ. I suppose the same can be said for the bashers of the Buj. How much time have they spent learning the techniques? If I had to guess, I'd say not much.

 

You don't think people who practice BJJ have ever been attacked by multiple opponents? Of course they have.

Truth be told, no art can really help you much vs multiple opponents. If those guys really wanted to hurt Hatsumi, they probably could have. Beating multiple opponents is pretty much a myth. My BJJ instructor suggests you try to kick the first one in the balls and run. It is a terrible situation to be in. I enjoyed Hatsumi's solution of dropping low and rolling across the backs of one opponent's knees. Also, tucking one arm under your arm pit is used on the ground as well, a basic BJJ technique that must have its roots in JJ.

You want me to address multiple opponents? Have one blackbelt ninja beat a single BJJ black belt guy, then you can worry about multiple opponents.

If I want to bash an art, I bash it. Why hide? This is a little off subject, but I think your art fails. It's too slow because most of the techniques were designed to work against heavily encumbered (armored) opponents--giving time for big chambering and exagerrated full-body movements. I experimented with it, and it's too slow in my opinion for modern self-defense. Also, some of those locks (demon crusher for instance) are impossible to pull off in real life. I also find the training too unrealistic--the opponent doesn't resist much.

What do I like about it? Unlike many arts, it really takes psychology and physiology into account of a real altercation. Also, I think a good practitioner would be good at "sensing danger" and avoiding trouble.

It seems to attract Dungeons and Dragons freaks, so it's embarrasing on many fronts with its black gis and psuedo-mysticism.

Open enough for you? If you call that bashing, you need help--it's just a critique.

I practiced the techniques for about three years when I was younger. However, there were no BJK dojos in my area. My TKD teacher was friends with members of the BJK near Detroit. He'd practice with them and then we'd practice ninjutsu after TKD glass; show me the stuff he learned. Once every few months, one of the BJK guys would come over and we'd practice. I spent hours incorporating the stomp kick and a lot of ninjutsu footwork and forward and backward rolling into my fighting repertoire. Then I took a day seminar with Doran Novan (he did a lot of Aikido footwork). Recently I experimented with To-Shin Do.

I took the art very seriously for a very long time, but I had to test it, and it seems to crumble vs a resisting, un-armored opponent. That's not bashing, that's one man's finding. Probably not worth much to you, but we're all on our own and have to think for ourselves (at least we're supposed to!)

Bringing this back to the point: I suggest if you love BJK, take it out of BJK and see how it works. What does and what has to be adjusted? Ask questions, and look at different answers.

(PS: I still use several taijutsu techniques--there's a lot of good stuff and I think the video clip... though a little unrealistic, could work and is worth playing with!)

 

Where are the youtube clips? If video is such a determining factor in what works and what does not, surely there must be some clips floating around. If you could link some that'd be great.

Some are better than others.

This is probably the #1 problem with video clips. People assume that what they see is the way things actually go down. Ever stop to think that perhaps specific things are being shown?

Thats your opinion.

Well, nothing wrong with that. Would you be so kind as to explain further, how BJJ deals with multiples?

What does that prove though?

If I read right, didnt you say that you spent time under one of the best Buj guys around? How much time? I'm curious because you said that you experimented with it.

Was the 3 years spent under that top instructor? I ask because then you mention one day with Doran.

What works for one may not work for the next. When you were testing, and had the problems you describe, did you seek out someone who could perhaps help you to understand them?

 

Ahh..I stand corrected. So, let me get this correct. You practiced Buj material with the TKD instructor, who was also training in the Buj? What was his rank and how long had he been training? Then, from time to time, you'd work with someone else.

 

So many smiley faces!

BJJ, unlike your art, does not claim it has good solutions to multiple attackers. It's blackbelts belive that no system can help you, really (it would come down to luck and a lack of coordination between your attackers).

My instructor was attacked once by about 10 guys. They chased him up onto a roof. He grabbed the biggest one, a huge Polynesian, and pulled him on top of him while wedging himself into a corner. He used the big guy as a shield while the others dug into his face and bit his hands (he still has the scars on his face when he grows a 5 o'clock shadow). Then the other bouncers came and they all "dealt" with these attackers...

Another story: a student at our club was attacked between two semi truck trailers. Because of the limited space, he was able to break the arms of the three attackers as they filed forward to mug him (they all ended up in the hospital where they were arrested).

A lone victim vs well coordinated attackers = virtually 0 chance to win. You need a lot of luck more than anything! Don't be in fantasy land!

In the end, it doesn't matter much! If you can't get away, they're going to pull you down, one will hold you and the other will bash you. Better to be realistic and admit you're screwed no matter what art you do.

Duh! It's just a demonstration. I'm not making any assumptions, but you might be!

Again, no art can "deal with multiples" unless it's the art of kumi sutra! BJJ practioners simply don't believe you have a real chance. Yes, fight and do your best, but you are in fantasy land if you think your art equalizes vs two good fighters bent on killing you. (I hope you never have to find out).

I have spelled out my exposure to BJK... please do the same with your experience in BJJ (or any art).

Well, it really wasn't difficult to understand the problems, but I did ask a 5th degree BJK blackbelt about it. Those problems were not overcome to my satisfaction, so I moved on (not the only reason I moved on). I do appreciate him and his viewpoint, just couldn't square it with reality--not that he really disagreed much with my assessments.

So what's the point of all this. Let's cut the BS. I'm not a basher of Hatsumi. I loved Taijutsu for many years. I found it didn't work (for me). I find many of his students talk big but don't test their art--and they ignore Hatsumi's words to be more open; that's where my criticism comes from.

Go to a BJJ club and respectfully ask to test some of your skills. Ask them about eye-gouging, fish-hooking, and groin grabbing vs a grappler. Tell them why you think BJJ is so bad vs multiple opponents. Have you done that? I did before I ever joined a BJJ class. They will prove to you how ignorant you are (I had the same beliefs you did not so long ago!)

Am I saying you have to do BJJ for years under a qualified teacher to have an opinion on it? Hell no! That's a weasle way out for me: if you say you took one class, I say you need five years; if you say you have five years--we'll you'd need 6--it's a dumb game. So, go to one class and ask those questions I gave you above. If the BJJ instructors don't change your mind in 15 minutes by showing you why you're wrong, I'll admit defeat. Seems to me from the video, Hatsumi would approve of such an exchange!

 

Whats wrong with smilies?

You said:

I was asking for you to explain their methods. If they've been attacked, they must have some methods, no? As I expected, you failed to show any proof of this.

As I stated, this is your opinion.

Um, yeah, ok.

LMAO!

If you say so.

Actually, your post was vague. Seems that you trained for 3yrs. as you claim, but I have to wonder the skill of the person you're training under. So, while you leave me with a mystery on your training, I shall do the same with mine.

You love the Buj? Really? Looks like some bashing in this post.
http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1238913&postcount=173

Here as well
http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=69068&page=5&pp=15

Looking at some of your past posts, you've only been doing BJJ for a short time, yet, you have all the answers. I think that you've made up your mind, so no matter what anyone says to you, you won't listen, because your mind is already made up.

Good luck in your training.