Has anyone read Yan Dehua's Bagua Application?

Discussion in 'Internal Martial Arts' started by IMAS, Feb 17, 2013.

  1. IMAS

    IMAS Banned Banned

    Hi,

    Just came across this book translated from Chinese by Andrea Falk and just want to know your thought on these applications.

    Best regards.

    IMAS
     
  2. Simon

    Simon Moved on Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    What are your thoughts IMAS, and can you provide a little more information?

    You have after all been asked to add a little more information to your threads.
     
  3. inthespirit

    inthespirit ignant

    Not read it, but here is an excerpt I found online:

    http://www.thewushucentre.ca/book-translations/downloads/yandehaexcerpt.pdf

    Personally, from the little I have seen in the above linked excerpt, I’m not a fan of these sorts of books. I don’t really see the point of them in that the applications are all good and well, but for me, these applications are no different from the countless others found in other arts, I don’t see anything special or note worthy. In my personal opinion, in Ba Gua and IMA in general (and certainly not exclusively IMA), prior to teaching application or techniques, one needs to address the issues of what is often termed ‘listening skills’, i.e. how to recognize and take advantage of the opponents weakness upon the point of contact (or before), how to manipulate the point of contact and exploit the weakness present at that specific moment in time and at that specific contact point. Without addressing these (IMO) integral steps, which need to come prior to executing a specific technique or application, the issue of executing the technique/application is a matter of luck, brute force, etc, etc. It’s not necessarily all bad in itself, but it’s like ignoring, not knowing the weather conditions before going on an expedition, you may or may not get there.

    This is the sort of stuff I am referring to, all demo’s obviously:

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TxX6HIDFDOo"]Listening hands (with bagua applications) - YouTube[/ame]

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LtxY3iepbO8"]Untouchable; Fa Jin & The Sphere - I Liq Chuan® - YouTube[/ame]

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3WlBdCmvFFs"]I Liq Chuan - Fullness, Emptiness & When To Strike - YouTube[/ame]

    Just wanted to add, my comments in relation to the book are solely based on the excerpt linked above. For all I know the book is a goldmine of ‘listening skill’ information, but I did not get that impression from either the excerpt nor the table of contents.
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2013
  4. Ben Gash CLF

    Ben Gash CLF Valued Member

    Lack of listening ging is a problem with a lot of TCMA application work. Everyone's there practicing static Chin Na drills and then wonder why they can't grab hold of the arm for real.
     
  5. inthespirit

    inthespirit ignant

    Yeah, seems like a lot of teachers don’t directly teach this aspect. Probably several reasons behind this, but I think in general the majority don’t know these skills and less often the teachers themselves have this skill, but don’t know how to teach it. The latter I’ve seen a few times i.e. superbly skilled teacher, yet the students have nothing tangible. I suppose finding someone who can do and can teach is quite rare these days.
     
  6. IMAS

    IMAS Banned Banned

    This book was first published in 1936 and the author was the Cheng Tinghua lineage. Cheng Tinghua had a background in wrestling and Cheng style Baguazhang is sort of linked with wrestling. If one looks at the Bagua pushing hand or grappling in youtube will have a good idea of the difficulties in doing these techniques when the opponent is moving around all the time. This is more practical in a competitive situation such as to do a takedown when the opponent is not static.
     
  7. Ben Gash CLF

    Ben Gash CLF Valued Member

    Stopping your opponent from moving around being one of the fundamental skills of combat :rolleyes:
     
  8. IMAS

    IMAS Banned Banned

    Yes, is this why they have cage fighting because they do not know how otherwise?
     
  9. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    can you post a link to the book at least.
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2013
  10. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    No
     
  11. IMAS

    IMAS Banned Banned

    [PDF]
    Exerpts from the book Yan Dehua's Bagua Applications ISBN 0 ...
    www.thewushucentre.ca/book-translations/.../yandehaexcerpt.pdfFile Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - Quick View
    Exerpts from the book Yan Dehua's Bagua. Applications ISBN 0-9687517-2-5. Please note that this file has been altered to make a PDF for download and is not ...


    Yan Dehua's Bagua Applications by Andrea Falk (eBook) - Lulu
    www.lulu.com/.../yan-dehuas-bagua-applications/.../product-200118...Mar 21, 2012 – Buy Yan Dehua's Bagua Applications by Andrea Falk (eBook) online at Lulu. Visit the Lulu Marketplace for product details, ratings, and reviews.
     
  12. Simon

    Simon Moved on Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    IMAS, this is getting ridiculous. None of the links work properly and if you don't start to make some degree of effort, I'm going to start locking down your thread(s).
     
  13. IMAS

    IMAS Banned Banned

  14. IMAS

    IMAS Banned Banned

    You are right, I am just generalizing as if everyone knew the tactic of Baguazhang. You see the Wing Chun practitioners already worked out the defensive method against this tactic.
     
  15. El Medico

    El Medico Valued Member

    I've got Lee,Ying-arng's edition, published in '77.

    Interesting thing is that I've read,perhaps on RSF, that those illustrations were pirated from a previous work on a "Shaolin" system.

    So what do you think of the apps in the book,IMAs?

    Cheng,T'ing-hua's PK is only linked with wrestling in the sense that the stylistic preference is downing over striking due to Cheng's personal preferences. The opposite is true of Yin Fu's PK but both lineages have the same options open to them in regards to the function of a given PK move. Not unlike the stylistic preferences of Wu,C-c's and Yang,C-f's TC.
     
  16. IMAS

    IMAS Banned Banned

    Thanks for the information, the book is entitled Pa-Kua Chang for Self-Defense by Lee Ying-Arng and Yen Tie-Hwq, and is available to read online for free. Yan Dehua's book was published in 1935 under the name Shaolin Po Bi and can be translated as a breakthrough of Shaolin Arts.

    The application of Baguaquan to a one to one situation is not so simple as it was designed for gang fighting sort of hit and run, etc. However, there is the two person set developed by Fu Zhensong in the 1930's (published by his son in 1987). It seems that it is a development from Taijiquan rather than from Baguaquan.
     
  17. El Medico

    El Medico Valued Member

    Thank you, I couldn't recall that original title.

    One to one situations are still where the highest rate of success is possible,regardless of system.
     
  18. IMAS

    IMAS Banned Banned

    Yan's book has a collection of 34 scenarios, so it is a good reference of classical grappling back to the 1930's in China. It is just kind of interesting to work on the the various countering techniques. The idea of continuity of Baguaquan should also work on two person sets.
     

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