I was just scanning through the hkd threads, and I hate to say this but this Gagne guy is .......a little scary....... his website gives little insight to anything except how great he is. The "about us" page should say "about me" From the looks of the pics his classes are not really that big , which means he better brush up on his own business skills before trying to teach other people how to do it. I want to see at least 350-500 active students in a school before I take advice, or pay to learn how to run a business. And anytime someone teaches AND PROMOTES VIA VIDEO is a little screwy. I think the MA business is full of all types, from good to bad, but I don't care who this guy is or what he can do. his profile screams many 3 word phrases to me.......run like hell......where's my wallet?.......don't look back.....where's my keys?....... i'm outta here.. sorry monstermaxx ---thats just what I see.....
I've been around a lot of teachers and M.Gagne is top tier as far as I'm concerned. I consider it a privledge to learn from the man.
Well, obviously people will have different experiences. I am glad that you have found a system that works for you and a master that you're proud to be affiliated with. I think some people look long and hard at schools and it is admirable that you have found one that works for you. Hankido and Hankumdo are truly unique and unusual arts.
As an MA instructor, and an attorney, I'd be interested in learning what legal theory any instructor believes prevents a former student from training at someone else' school. Miles
We just had an 'open house' here, for the last 5 days and several of M.Gagne's blackbelt students came from around the country. We’ve been playing and doing all kinds of cool stuff and it’s been a real blast! Even the ankle biter class was fun (I’d not been to one before), I was surprised to see his methods with the kids, very different from adult classes, quite effective as well. I've got to say that if this guy isn't the real deal I can’t imagine what is. The skill demonstrated is impressive and even as good as these guys are, M.Gagne still had tons more info to teach them. The impression I got was that even though these guys are already highly skilled, MG’s teaching as much new to them as he does to me, a mere whitebelt. The man appears to have an almost limitless depth of knowledge. Gotta admit, I find him to be quite likeable on a personal level too. What’s most surprising to me is how quickly something he’s teaching sets in. I’m not quite sure I’ve got a clear picture of his methods, but I can say that they work. The man knows how to impart knowledge. IMHO this is the mark of a truly great teacher. All this bashing and display of hate seems not only quite pointless, but is way off the mark from my observations. I find your accusations groundless and they do not 'fit' with the character of the man I've been getting to know over the last 6 months. I do not have blinders on, or think the man is Mr. Perfect. If you look deep enough everyone will have traits that an individual will interpret as flaws. Everyone has different scales of measurement, often even the measurements are completely different. I do however understand that some personalities just do not mesh and freely acknowledge your right to your opinion. I have to say that this bashing on the net as seems somewhat cowardly, particularly when your ‘opponent’ is known not to frequent places like this. While it’s true I did ask, some of these responses strike me as childish and unprofessional. As to this former student teaching MG’s techniques at another school… He’s spent 40 years developing what he passes on to us. If this were engineering these would be patentable creations. MG’s justified in considering them trade secrets and not wanting competing schools to have these secrets. I have no idea about this former student, but when I signed up, he made this very clear to me and I AGREED as a condition of learning that they were his trade secrets and I would not teach them to others without his permission. Additionally, by the mile #s you quoted I can see that this person signed into the ‘Instructor Course’, the inner circle where he was privy to so much more. I too doubt this is legally enforceable (or should I say ‘cost effective’), but if this student gave his promise, he should keep it. I know I would. I can certainly see why Master Gagne feels betrayed by this person. The more time I spend with Master Gagne and the more I see of his skill and the abilities of those he teaches the more I realize that the opportunity that presented itself last November was one of those rare truly great opportunities we get in life. I thank God that I’ve been given this chance and had the good sense to grab and hang on. I'm happy. How many of you can count yourself so fortunate?
Sounds like a non competition clause. usually you see these in other industries for a length of time and a distance, but 10 years and 25 miles is a little much. The part about it being enforceable depends on the precedence set is case history of similar cases and probably varies from state to state. I don't blame any owner from having this in writing with employees, but I have heard the average is 1-2 years and 10 miles. If there are any employment attorneys out there this would be interesting to know more about. Please give us your angle. If an owner is doing everything right they probably will never need to enforce it, but you never know?!?! Maxx I hope for the sake of you and all your class mates that things are as good as you see them. I hope you enjoy your training but I would be cautiously optimistic. Good luck
Don't know who this guy is... so I'm not directing this directly against anyone but this has already been brought up in courts. The LAW has stated that no one owns the techniques. You can only own a name you create. Like a copy right. I.E. Tracy Karate, Combat Hapkido, etc. The techniques themselves are free realm. Otherwise imagine him only owning the techniques he "creates". Everything he learned from someone else would be considered "trade secrets" and those that taught him would be justified in suing him for not wanting competing schools. If that were the case you can theoretically apply that train of thought to all martial arts and pretty much the richest people in the world would be descendents of Boddidharma.
MG’s contract doesn’t state that he ‘owns’ these techniques, it’s a non-compete. As I understand it (and I’m not privy to the details) he’s trained the individual based on the agreement that this person will not take this training to the competition. If this person has then broken this agreement MG probably has a case. I had to sign a non-compete agreement similar to this when I worked for a CAD software reseller. Their reasoning is that they were spending time & money training me, they didn't want me going across the street and working for the competition with their training. This type agreement is fairly standard when an employer has to make a large investment in the employee. I'd agreed when I went to work for them. If memory serves correctly it was a 100 mile radius and 5 years. SC is a Right to Work state and this is completely unenforceable. When I left them I didn't break my word and did something else with my talents. Rangewalker, you seem rather well informed on this and are quite HOT on the topic, makes me wonder if YOU are the student in question? Choiyoungwoo, I am cautious and am not easily convinced, more cynic than anything else. There are numerous examples where MG has delivered.
Hi MonsterMaxx, Whether or not he has a case is literally a judgment call. Covenants not to compete are problematic legally. It really depends on state law and the judge's interpretation of that law. Covenants not to compete that are judged by the courts to place unreasonable restrictions on one's ability to earn a living in one's chosen field are unenforceable. Yes, but software is intellectual property that can be patented and typically is. As somebody pointed out above, apparently martial arts techniques cannot. Big difference. As for SC being a right-to-work state, that's true, but it's not relevant to the covenant not to compete. Right-to-work laws prevent employees from being compelled to join or financially support labor unions (a situation sometimes referred to as a "closed shop") save a few exceptions, like federal contracts. Pretty much all of the Southern states have right-to-work laws. If this guy is as good as you say he is, he shouldn't have anything to worry about from former students who teach his tecniques.
Howard, It was a software reseller (a VAR), not the software manufacturer. The non-compete was that I cannot go to another reseller of the same software. No intellectual rights apply here. Seems very much on point. Rangewalker, I don’t know what’s caused you to have this falling out, 20 years is a lot, at some point you must have respected the man. It’s sad when a 20yr relationship fails, but it happens and there is often bad will too (ugly divorces anyone?)
Since he knew he was leaving in 6 months, then he had to have been making arrangements with the new owner already. I would bet that part of the "sales pitch" to the new school owner included the fact that this non-compete agreement exsisted with all bb/ instructors/employees ( whichever) and was a condition of the sale which he had to provide. I agree with you that it seems ridiculous, but It sounds like he painted himself into a corner. Really strange?!?!? Once he realized that you wouldn't be a party to that agreement , he had to distance you from the dojang asap so it wouldn't sour the upcoming deal. I kind of understand why he did what he did but , you would think he could sit down with you and ya'll could hash it out over a cup of coffee or something in a pleasant way. Thats just nuts!! in order for him to sue you for that and prevail he must show a loss. I just don't see how he will do that. I think he is relying on his bark working so well that he never has to bite. New Students, old students, and money! He could easily lose students to a new school with younger a less experienced instructors. because if they do a better job of providing great classes, then they don't care about the teachers rank. "it's not what you can do , its what you can do for me!" thats what they are thinking. I wonder what he would do if a large dojo opened near him all of a sudden. with some 3rd degree, 28 year old owner that was fantastic in MA skill, teaching, marketing, and management ?!?!?!?
Mabye he added his flavor, but there is nothing new under the sun, I assure you he invented nothing. Is there no chance he got it from someone else in the last 40 years? I am sure he sees it that way and he wants you to see it that way but there are no trade secrets in MA, but a patent judge would render a final decision on that. This is the most interesting part. MG is a genius here.. Virtually no one signing up for MA has thoughts to teach yet. His agreement binds you EARLY, before you would ever have any aspirations to teach. But if that should ever occur, then he's got you by the short and curlies. I am not being sarcastic when I say that this is really clever!! Betrayed?? probably not, he is likely numb to this by now, worried about losing "trade secrets" probably not, there are no trade secrets in MA... worried about losing market share, almost certainly!! I truly don't mean for this to sound confrontational, but I bet thats exactly how he wants you to feel at this point. I hope it is for all the right reasons. ME TOO
having read all of this thread i'm pretty much in aggremnet with what choi has said. you are the client paying for his service, and should be free to use the knowledge you have paid to learn in anyway you see fit, including teaching it. if you leave his association what you do should be none of his bussines. no one in ma should ever sign a contract that restricts their freedom of choice.
That's exactly what it is-a non-compete clause. I don't do employment law and every state is different as Choiyoungwoo stated. But a non-competition clause does not prevent a former student from training with someone else. Miles
