Hapkido in south florida

Discussion in 'Hapkido' started by xaoxaoo, Mar 8, 2009.

  1. Danjun

    Danjun Valued Member

    You must not be very familiar with DRAJJ

    DRAJJ - the authentic DRAJJ - whether it's taught by Koreans, Japanese, Americans, or Pygmies is not a 70/30 mix of Aikido and Hapkido.
     
  2. Kraen

    Kraen Valued Member

    I don't think this is 'authentic' anything. Otherwise it would be a pretty unanimous vote. But here we are. Discussing what it 'is.'

    Definitely not any 'Hapkido' I know. And definitely not any 'Aikido' I know.

    -Kraen
     
  3. Danjun

    Danjun Valued Member

    Mike, if you are being sincere, you really need to do more researchy - for your sake

    The basic techniques of any martial art is its foundation. Every single one of the techniques shown in the video with the two students was Aikido. Let me stress: they weren't similar to Aikido, they WERE Aikido techniques. The footwork of both the nage and uke as well as the techniques.

    Moreover, several years ago, GM Chang admitted during an interview in Korea that what he taught was Aikido. To avoid confusion, he calls it Hapkido but, at least in the past, when questioned by knowledgeable martial artists, GM Chang had the integrity and honesty to say that what he taught was Aikido, NOT Hapkido. If memory serves me correctly, I believe GM Chang told people in Korea that while he was with Myung Jae Nam's IHF, GM Myung found out that GM Chang was going to Japan to receive instruction in Aikido (from Hirata Sensei I believe) without GM Myung's knowledge or permission and GM Chang was subsequently kicked out of GM Myung's organization. GM Chang also stated back then that he was only a 6th dan.

    Hapkiyoosool/Hapkiyusul (Aikijujitsu) IS AN ART - and, while it is related to Aikido and Hapkido (the founders of both arts can trace their lineage back to Takeda Sokaku), it is different from Aikido and Hapkido. Moreover, unless one looks at the Myung Jae Nam line of Hapkido or other line of Hapkido that incorporated Aikido to varying degrees, Hapkido and Aikido are also very different. The same Chinese characters has caused confusion to quite a few people and has been exploited by more than one individual.
     
  4. mike-IHF

    mike-IHF Valued Member

    Danjun,


    The same basic techniques are in every Hapkido curriculum as well correct? The only thing that you keep refering to is footwork, and redirection, which I have said is Aikido.

    Oh you must be refering to the interview that you were involved in, where you lied to GM Jang saying you were from a Korean martial arts magazine in order to ask him questions? As far as GM Jang only being a 6th Dan, I doubt that. From what I was told from him he received his 7th dan from the original Korea Hapkido Federation in 1978. The rumor of GM Jang being kicked out of the IHF is just that, a rumor. GM Jang told me this story directly in which what exactly happened was this. GM Jang had a financer for his school, MR. Kang who I have mentioned before. In 1984 he told GM Jang to go to Japan. GM Jang did not really want to go. Myung did question him about it, and yes they had a falling out, in which GM Jang left Myung and started his own IHF. This was misinterpreted as him being kicked out.

    Yes Hapkiyoosool/Aikijujutsu is an art. But we all know this is not what Choi taught. He taught whatever he learned in Japan, which was not the FULL art of Aikijujutsu. Aikijujutsu practitionors have said this on many occasians. That Choi did not have full knowledge of the art. Hence why what I said is true. What he taught was not an art. It became an art when it was forulated as an actual system. Which some would say happened under Ji.
     
  5. Kraen

    Kraen Valued Member

    Not at my club.

    -Kraen
     
  6. mike-IHF

    mike-IHF Valued Member

    Kraen,

    I don't want to get into a discussion of technique. Or have you brought in to what has been started by other ppl. Versions of (to use japanese terms) Kotegaeshi, Nikyo, Ikkyo, Sankyo, four corner throw etc. Are found in every major Hapkido organization I have seen or trained with. Wether it be JJK,IHF,KHF,WHF, etc..etc.. I see in some of the video's at your school, the teacher/students are doing four corner throw on numerous occasions. This exist in Hapkido, and Aikido. The main difference is in the intent, and hand placement/application of the technique. The main difference from your school, and ours is how the redirection and footwork is used. Where we use circular, you use more direct lines. The end result is not the question.
     
  7. Danjun

    Danjun Valued Member

    Mike, You're Either Not Getting It or You Are Being Purposely Evasive

    The same techniques are NOT taught in every Hapkido curriculum unless it is from the Myung Jae Nam line or another "Hapkido" school that has adopted Aikido techniques. One example: any Korean Hapki-related art (which all flows from Choi Yong Sul) pre-Aikido influence DID NOT HAVE ikkyo as your school teaches it. The technique most similar to ikkyo in Hapkido is kalnukki and anyone intelligent can see that they are not one and the same. Moreover, as I posted that I would, I started thread on the Aikido forum of this site regarding your organization's videos. Another Aikido person has posted on the Aikido forum after viewing your organization's official videos that the techniques are Aikido but certain basic fundamentals are missing (i.e., it is bad Aikido). ONE example: the shihonage as shown in the video would not work no matter what you called it.

    I was not involved in the interview with GM Chang, never met the man and so cannot have lied to him. I was made aware of the interview. I believe GM Chang has one school (his) in Korea. He definitely does not have a strong following or recognition in Korea - this I do know for a fact.

    Your knowledge of what Choi Yong Sul was taught/learned and my knowledge of the same is different but I do have a question for you. Since you are saying that what Choi Yong Sul was taught (and thus, Choi Yong Sul himself, in your opinion, taught) was not Aikijujitsu/Hapkiyoosool/Hapkiyusul, how/why did your instructor, Jeff Allen, represent what he teaches as "Daito Ryu Aikijujitsu/Hapkiyoosool"? He did it aggressively when he first advertised himself and as noted in one of my previous posts on this thread, evidence of his promotion of what he teaches as DRAJJ/Hapkiyoosool still exists on aikidojournal.com. The only explanation that he ever provided was something along the lines of since Choi Yong Sul was taught by Takeda Sokaku (which you now claim "we all know this is not what Choi taught. He taught whatever he learned in Japan, which was not the FULL art of Aikijujutsu") and some kicks were added in to make it Hapkido, if you take the kicks out of Hapkido, you get DRAJJ/Hapkiyoosool [in my opinion, such an argument by anyone shows that person's poor understanding of Hapkido]. Yet what you've posted in this thread in your posts seems to contradict what your instructor has said - clarification?
     
  8. mike-IHF

    mike-IHF Valued Member

    Danjun,

    I was not referring specifically to Ikkyo. I was just making a generalization of certain techniques. Outside wrist turn, Shionage, iriminage our found in every Hapkido school I have been to. Even a KHF school I studied at before studying with Master Allen. Are they done differently, yes I am not disagreeing that. So if all the experts say what we do is Aikido, than so be it. However like I said until my certificates read Aikido on them I'm still calling it Hapkido. I will continue to tell my students up front, what I stated before. The same thing can be said for any IHF school. I'm assuming you don't see that as Hapkido, so I guess they would have to change what they call their art as well.

    Well, from what I was made aware, you did have some involvement in the interview. Hence why Master Allen contacted you. Your right he does only have one school. As well as the school at Osan. He does have one student who has a school somewhere near (Songtan), Pyoungtaek. I will send you the link to his website if I can find it in my email. That says nothing. There are plenty of instructors that only have one school, so what are you saying?

    The debate of what Choi taught, or did not teach as been done until the cows come home. And unless someone that studied with Choi pre:1970 comes forward, and can lay out a detailed curriculum of what he taught, then no one knows the truth. All we can go by is the words of numerous ppl, and also what has been said by Aikijujutsu practitioners etc. As far as your question, like I said I don't hold Master Allen's hand. I can't control every word that comes out of his mouth. So I would think you are asking the wrong person, why he calls what he does. I have said in the past I don't care if the art was called flying monkey hap aiki. A name is something that is attached to an object, and bears no meaning or significance in my opinion. I focus on the material, nothing else. I like what we do. And ppl I teach like it whether they be civilian/military/law enforcement etc... I'm happy with it. So it seems your real problem still exist with Master Allen, and I can't help you there. If you are that knowledgable of Hapkido/Hapkiyoosool/Aikido etc. Then please come to the seminar in June. I would love to absorb some of that infinite knowledge you posess.
     
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2009
  9. Danjun

    Danjun Valued Member

    Mike, You are being disingenuous again

    The Hapkido world is, simply put, a mess. It is difficult to find legitimate instructors and the fault primarily lies with the various Hapkido organizations and the individuals behind them. That being said, in my opinion, individuals like Jeff Allen do not help the situation.

    As for your repeated attempts to say that the videotape put up by your organization is not Aikido - in my opinion, they are pure Aikido techniques - shows poor understanding and execution of Aikido - but they are Aikido. They are not Hapkido or Hapkiyoosool/Hapkiyusul/Aikijujitsu. Look at the Aikido forum on this site. You will see other Aikido practicioners agreeing with me that they show Aikido techniques, albeit poorly done. There are large numbers of Aikido Shihans and high ranks here in the USA (let alone Japan) that, in my opinion - and the opinion of other Aikidoka - that are significantly better technically than GM Chang.

    The only "correspondence" I had with Jeff Allen were posts on internet b boards. Neither Jeff Allen nor his wife contacted me. They contacted someone else. I am aware of the content of their correspondence (I believe the one from his wife had something like "please stop scaring my husband"). Like I said before, I did not interview GM Chang, never met or spoke with the man and frankly, have no wish or reason to meet or speak with him. If I wanted to do Aikido again, there are numerous Aikidoka in my vicinity that are significantly better than GM Chang at what he tries to do, Aikido.

    Moreover, those individuals have affiliations and recognition with legitimate Aikido organizations (Hombu Dojo, Iwama Ryu, Yoshinkan, etc.,).

    If you and other students are happy - GREAT. To each his own. I do find it interesting that whereas in the past, you were parroting what your instructor Jeff Allen was saying, you are now seemingly trying to distance yourself from him. Is this possible/appropriate given that he is your instructor, you are a part of his organization and you are defending/promoting what is being taught?

    As for coming to your next seminar, your sarcasm aside, why on earth would I spend the time, money and effort to go attend a seminar that teaches what I and other Aikido practioners believe to be BAD AIKIDO?! I learned good Aikido from great Aikido instructors and Shihans (both American and Japanese) in the past. Moreover, why would I teach/share (if you and your organization truly were interested) what I know about Aikido, Hapkido and/or Hapkiyusul with your organization that has repeatedly misrepresented what it teaches? Moreover, why would you need me or anyone else - your organization in the past promoted itself as teaching unadulterated pure pre-WW II Aikijujitsu (and still does to a certain degree). Some of your promotional materials PLAGARIZED VERBATIM from another organization unaffiliated with yours (and Jeff Allen admitted as much although he was man enough to blame it on his students who supposedly used his computer and username to do so). Who's to say that if I attended the seminar, I wouldn't be like the individuals who got taken in by your organization's promotion and went to the first US seminar by GM Chang only to never return?

    Mike, you (a student) are a classic example of why I find certain individuals and their organizations so repulsive - I feel sorry for the students who get taken in. After devoting time, money and effort, if all is not as it was represented, they either have to be in denial or they have to cut their losses, accept that they may have made a mistake and then go on. In other words, without sounding too patronizing, I feel sorry for you Mike. I really do. It wasn't your fault.
     
  10. nj_howard

    nj_howard Valued Member

    Not so. All you need to do is check out the Jungkikwan curriculum. GM Lim began training under Choi in 1965. His curriculum is a faithful reflection of what he learned over many years as Choi's direct student.

    DVDs of the curriculum through 1st dan are publicly available.
     
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2009
  11. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    I don't know how far people want to take the matter of AIKIDO being represented as HAPKIDO. When I think of this, I also consider the other practices which are known to come along with the AIKIDO practices. Such things as Japanese JO (stick) and KEN (sword) routinely interface with the unarmed material. As in the case of HAPKIDO (see: CHOI) there is sword and stick of a decidedly Korean vintage which would be done a disservice if the Japanese counterpart were represented as a Korean art. IMHE I have found traditional Korean sword to be decidedly different from its Japanese and Chinese counterparts despite the many influences back and forth. FWIW.

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
     
  12. Danjun

    Danjun Valued Member

    What are you trying to say Bruce?

    Are you agreeing with me (and others - see Aikido forum) that Mike's organization appears to be trying to pass off Aikido as Hapkido/Hapkiyoosool?

    As for the jo and bokken, from what I have seen, it appears that as with what I've seen of their hand techniques, they are doing the Aikido jo and bokken techniques. Keep in mind that mainstream Hapkido and Hapkiyusul does not have the jo (medium staff): they have the short stick, cane and/or long staff. They don't teach sword forms unless they are incorporating some sort of sword art (in Korea, quite a few Hapkido schools have been incorporating Haedong Gumdo into their curriculum).
     
  13. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    My own opinion is gonna be worth exactly what you are paying for it, and I am speaking from a place where I have been through at least two other threads on this matter.

    That said, I had a couple of people from two organizations in the Chicago area look at the material in the clips some time back and both individuals agreed, separately, that what they were looking at was a kind of "aikido federation" (see: Shioda) level of execution. They seemed to characterize such execution as being rather directive when compared to Tohei or Saotome types of play.

    For myself, I'm a bad one to ask as I have less and less investment in the Japanese influences as time goes on. Not sure why it is, but it seems that most of the debates about what people do and whose tradition is being followed mostly occur over on the Japanese side of the house. Its also hard for me to tease-out a single player's representation of the Hapkido arts when misrepresentation of what one does has been rampant in the Hapkido arts for almost 50 years. A little late to start bitching about it now, yes? FWIW.

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
     
  14. Danjun

    Danjun Valued Member

    Bruce...

    I don't understand your first sentence.

    As for your second sentence, first, I hope you and the people in Chicago who looked at the clips (Aikido folks I assume) are not saying that Jeff Allen's students and GM Chang (as represented on the videos they have posted) have Gozo Shioda's (the founder of Yoshinkan Aikido) LEVEL OF EXECUTION. I normally associate "level" with skill - in the videos I've seen of Jeff Allen's group, they don't even have the basics of Aikido down let alone approach Shioda Shihan. What's ironic is Yoshinkan is renown for the stress they place on the basics (and if you listen to Yoshinkan, their Aikido is much more pre-war than "mainstream" Aikido, i.e., Aikikai Aikido) and the uniformity of their techniques relative to other Aikido branches.

    Second, when did you have these people look at the clips and give you their opinion? If memory serves me correctly, for a while, you seemed to have been in agreement with the Florida folks. If you weren't in agreement, you certainly didn't refute any of their statements.

    Possible misrepresentation of the roots of Hapkido is very different from teaching one martial art and, by taking advantage of mistakes made by others and the ignorance of newbies, passing it off as a different martial art. I know it won't make you feel better (if anything, probably the opposite) but with regard to your reference about misrepresentations in Hapkido and the Hapkido related arts for the past 50 years, Koreans ordinarily don't make those claims to other Koreans. One example: I've never had anyone in Kuksulwon tell me or try to convince me of their official history =)

    As for your non-ceasing attempt to find the "Korean" in Korean martial arts, good luck but perhaps you can't see the forest because you are so fixated on a single tree. For what its worth, maybe the answer is right there in front of you but you can't see it because you are unwilling to raise your head and just look around. Good luck on your journey and may you find what you are looking for.
     
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2009
  15. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    I had approached the Aikido people here in Chicago during a donnebrook that erupted on another forum a couple of years back. The feedback paralled feedback that I had gotten on my own practice on the few times I attended training at the Howard Street dojo a couple of years before that. Put simply I was told that my own execution was far too "rough" and that I was too "goal oriented" getting the person to the mat and controlling them.

    No S***!

    I certainly wasn't going to apologize---or change my execution and things rather fell apart from there. However, just to clarify, I wasn't suggesting that the clips were even remotely similar to Shioda's level of ability but only that other Aikido people viewed the execution as more rough and directive than their own.

    I think its also important to consider the nature of my own contributions and where I fit into discussion such as this. To put it very candidly, I have grown quite fed-up with what passes for "business-as-usual" in the Hapkido community. I encourage people to speak their truthes, independent of whether I agree and I have sworn-off participating in bickering. Fact is that most groups in the Hapkido community believe what they believe because its fun for them to do so and not because its a truth. In fact most groups can get down-right nasty if one starts proffering facts that differ from their favorite beliefs.

    So... where does that leave me?

    If KIMM He-young, SUH In Sun, Jeff Allen or any of a dozen other people want to call something one thing knowing its something else thats fine for them. I choose to teach what I was taught and to build on that with whatever research I can accomplish. For the few study groups that I teach that seems to be enough. In the end there is simply not enough time in Life to go asround these same trees so many times. FWIW.

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
     
  16. Giovanni

    Giovanni Well-Known Member Supporter

    But KIMM at least called what he came up with Hanmudo, correct?

    If the martial art that Chang/Jang teaches was called "Chang/Jang's Special Martial Art that may or may not be influenced by Hapkido, Aikido and Hapkiyoosool", then nobody would have a problem, correct? The problem is that this is dared to be called "hapkido" and therefore "real" or "authentic" Hapkido must be defended, aside from the judgment that the technique is poor (that's another story altogether).

    Why doesn't Aikido have the same problem?
     
  17. Kraen

    Kraen Valued Member

    Because Aikido has a Shihan from each style in charge of the entire country in question. Usually straight from Japan.

    If the Shihan says this is the way it is. This is the way it is. The Yoshinkia(sp?) Shihan has no bearing over any Aikikia style students as far as 'how it's done' goes.

    IF you go off and do your own thing and disregard the Shihan, you'll be kicked out of whatever federation they have set up. No longer be allowed to go to seminars, etc. And I'm pretty sure the Shihan has to personally say 'yes, you can go and open your own school' for you to be legit, associated with the federation/Shihan, etc.

    This leads to some fairly well moderated quality-instruction within the Aikido communities.

    Something Hapkido seems to be lacking.

    -Kraen
     
  18. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    Frankly, Kraen, I honestly think you are being too kind.

    I think ever mother's son who is reading this thread knows pretty well why the Japanese Aikido people have proportionately fewer problems than do the Koreans.

    The fact is that the Japanese have a culture which allows for the existence, protection and promotion of their martial traditions, which the Koreans do not. Its not that Koreans don't have martial traditions. In fact they have a very long tradition that easily equals the Japanese. The difference is the matter of motives and intentions. Whatever quibbling there may be in the Japanese arts, the over-ridding concern is the integrity of the arts. The Koreans are far less protective of their martial culture and will easily do unspeakable things in the name of arts to which they are bearly related.

    Fact is that you can't swing a dead cat by the tail without hitting some 30-something "grandmaster" who has just reshuffled a deck of martial art techniques so as to place himself at the top of the pyramid. Its a b******t way to deal with a culture that deserves a lot better. If the Korean martial traditions disappear it will only be a result of what the Koreans earned. IMHO

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
     
  19. Danjun

    Danjun Valued Member

    Aikido has always been better organized

    The Ueshibas have done a much better job of organization and enforcement. The offshoots (Iwama Ryu, Yoshinkan, Tomiki Aikido) have learned by example. However, that is not to say that there are no crappy Aikido schools - there are.
     
  20. Danjun

    Danjun Valued Member

    A bit too much, don't you think Bruce?

    I would be the first to admit (and have even done so to a certain extent even on this thread) that Koreans and Korean organizations have contributed to the mess, either by being the root cause of it or, at a minimum, by inaction. For example, whereas they will not sell dan ranks in Korea, they will, for the right price, do so for Koreans who will immigrate abroad. In other words, they don't want fake masters or grandmasters opening up schools in Korea but don't care if they do so outside of Korea. So quite a few non-qualified Korean Hapkido "masters" taught students Hapkido and the problem spread exponentially. Most associations/federations will also readily accept the rank of (and sometimes shortly thereafter promote) non-Koreans who are willing to join their association/federation without any proof that the ranks are legitimate (and even in the face of proof that the ranks aren't legitimate) for the sake of growing their organization and in order to boast of the number of international schools belonging to their organization. Aikido organizations do so to a certain degree also.

    Having said all of the above, don't you think you are being way too one sided in your criticism of why the Korean martial arts, such as Hapkido, are in the shape they are in? For example, most of the people in the USA who go association/federation shopping are non-Koreans and they far outnumber any Koreans who have done something similar. So yes, Koreans may be doing destructive practices - but who are the willing participants?

    Also, Bruce, I have a question for you: can you honestly say you have never taken advantage of/benefited from the "Korean" practices that you are so willing to publicly criticize?

    I can honestly state that I never have - whenever I changed arts (Korean or Japanese), I always started over as a white belt and my instruction was always in person and not via occasional seminars or videos or written materials only. I also didn't change organizations or get into the politics in order to get benefits such as rank. As for me, learning and becoming good were always the primary goals.

    As for the Jeff Allen group, as I quoted previously in another post on this thread, Jeff Allen publicly admitted that the entire "Hapkiyoosool" spin was his idea, NOT his Korean instructor's idea.
     

Share This Page