Would this be a good dojang to look into joining, seems like its great ?? http://www.hapkiyoosool.com/jeff_allen.htm
Did you go in yet? try a class and see how you like it. I never heard of this guy. How far away from Tampa are you?
Im in miami. So pretty far. This martial art stuck out to me the most. I had gastric bypass a while ago and now im at a very good BMI and im trying to get into tip top shape now. Im joining the police academy also and I want the edge on self-defense. Hapkido looks like it would be great. Does anyone know of any schools down here ?
Hello all, This particular school is actually an Aikido school masquerading as a Hapkido dojang... Jeff Allen has a problem telling the truth about his lineage and that of his instructor - actually, he simply outright makes things up... but if you don't mind that the foundation of this school is dubious and you still join, all power to you...
Kevin, We are not an Aikido school. We have influence from Aikido just like most of the IHF schools in Korea. But it is not Aikido in application, or anything else. Furhter more Master Allen as well as myself has posted many times of our schools lineage and that of Grandmaster Jang. So save your bashing for someone who is stupid enough to believe your BS!
I hate to say this since it might seem as fueling the fire... but there is no mention of a GM Jang on that website. I see a GM CHang mentioned but no Jang. Perhaps there was a slight misnomer? If in fact you did mean Jang and not Chang it might be beneficial for those seeking info (like the OP) to have sufficient information on the website on who Jang is. i.e. Lineage. In fact imho lineage (while not the be all end all of determining a good teacher) is pretty much required on websites for just this very reason. Some people just like to know lineage... Me I care more about the actual teacher.
MaxG, Grandmaster Jang is the correct spelling of his name. Young Shil Jang. But the J in Jang is pronounced like a CH. So we put on the website the CH spelling so ppl pronounce it correctly. The problem is this Max. Other ppl just like to boast on a rather consistant basis about their lineage. Mr. Soger and other members of his organization, speak of their lineage almost every time they write a post, similar to a walking billboard. Mr. Soger has also never made any attempt to train with us or feel the applications of our techniques. Even members of other boards specifically Paul B on budoseek, who as training in Aikido, who has felt and seen our techniques has even said there was no comparison in technique. Ignorance is the main fuel of Mr.Soger's fire. A true practitioner of Hapkido knows that the art is felt in the techniques. He has only seen demonstration vids and pictures of our school. I and Master Allen have in the past have invited him and other members of his organization on numerous ocasions to seminars, and get togethers. As far as I know only Master D'Aloa has trained at our school. I'm here in VA, Master Allen in FL, and Master John Sagal is in MD. He has 3 choices to visit anyone of us, but he chooses to stay on forums like this one and talk crap. MaxG, Master Allen chooses not to put GM Jang's lineage on the website for the reasons I just spoke of. 1. you don't want students to be focused on lineage and not the techniques, and 2.because once they get so corrupted with focusing on lineage they end up with a personality and ego like Mr. Soger.We have put GM Jang's lineage up for grabs numerous times on here and on other forums. In fact GM Jang has more years in Hapkido than the president of Mr.Soger's organization, (not boasting just a point)... If Mr.Soger steps on the mat and if afterwards he can say our techniques feel the same as Aikido, I will bow down gracefully to him. But this will never happen Max. Because Mr.Soger has made it clear that he does not want to do that. He would rather sit on his computer and talk about other schools.
I'm guessing that what I am about to say won't make a lot of sense to most people unless one is a member of the Hapkido community. At any rate I lay it out for what it is worth. Fact is, that at face value I would probably concur with Kevin's assessment of Jeff's approach to Hapkido. I see a lot of Aikido in what Jeff does and probably couldn't care less how it is packaged and sold. There is, however, something that gets lost in all of this bickering that I think deserves to be recognized. What I notice about Jeff is that he is particularly dedicated to what he does and how he represents it. IMHO this rather much puts him in a unique place in the Hapkido community. For instance..... a.) I don't see Jeff making things up and representing them in some fashion that serves his purpose. b.) I don't see Jeff borrowing stuff from other arts and practices and then representing them as his own. c.) The sense I get is that if someone comes to Jeff's classes they will be required to learn his curriculum and held accountable for learning that material. Put another way... while Jeff does not offer something I would be interested in, at least I find his approach to have a bit more veracity than a lot of other stuff floating around in the Hapkido community. YMMV. Best Wishes, Bruce
I see... this is what I didn't want to happen when I posted my comment. My comment was strictly based on Chang versus Jang and the confusion it can cause. Unfortunately while you can say that Mr. Soger "started it" my comments had nothing to do with how Aikido-like your particular flavor of Hapkido was. It feels like you just used my post as a chance to "hit back." You could have simply stopped at "Jang is pronounced Chang"... Anyway. Imho you shouldn't spell someones name incorrectly even if it is to make it "sound" right. People looking for info like the OP will put the spelling found on that site into Google/Yahoo/etc. and will more than likely end up researching the wrong person because of that. Again my post wasn't about "more Aikido" or not. As I stated I could care less about rank or lineage. It's more about a particular teacher for me. HOWEVER many people are interested in that and while lineage is hardly ever the factor in deciding a good teacher/school or not it does have slight value in tracking e.g. that site even says to call if someone comes across a teacher using that particular organizations credentials. Imho it seems totally contradictory to me to say that GM Jang's Lineage shouldn't be posted because of a particular reason but then ask people to call to verify whether a particular instructor is under that federation. In other words call them to check on a particular teachers "lineage". Again you seemed to use MY post as a way to attack someone else. I don't know Mr. Sogor. I don't know you. I don't know what history you have with each other but I am disturbed at having my post used as a way to attack another person. My criteria for judging whether a school is good is as follows... 1. Good teacher 2. Good style 3. Good students 4. Background (i.e. lineage) As you can see lineage is pretty far down my list of what makes a good school. HOWEVER if I had a choice between two schools one taught by a 3rd degree black belt with legitimate history tracing to Choi and another 6th degree with dubious merits. I would seriously wonder why the 6th is so secretive about his history. What would be going through my mind is "If he's legit. Why wouldn't he be forthcoming with this info." Lineage means very little to me in that there are many great teachers from the Ji Han Jae tree, many great teachers from the Han Bong Soo tree, many great teachers from the Lim Hyun Soo tree, and I assume from the Jang tree, etc. etc. I've seen many 2nd and 3rd degrees surpass the teaching ability of 4th and 5th degrees. To me it's not about one lineage or rank being better than another. The bottomline for me is that an instructor has SOME connection somewhere. Proof that he's not just some Joe Schmo that decided one day to attend a weekend seminar to get his black belt. :woo: I want to emphasize that I know absolutely nothing about GM Jang. He may well be a great Hapkido practitioner. I stick to my own neck of the Hapkido woods. I seem to have been dragged into a long standing flamewar over my comments of Jang versus Chang and having lineage traceability. Leave me out of it people.
Both spellings are correct. Chang would be the McCune Reischauer method and Jang the Revised Korean Romanization method. If you want to write it right, use 장
Heard this all before... Hello all, OK, so all I said was that Allen likes to make up lineage...well, for those that don't know, or don't remember, Allen spent the better part of two years on several Forums telling everyone his instructor had a 9th dan from Choi Dojunim. Knowing this was false, he continues to try and "create" a connection to Choi Dojunim that simply does not exist at least in any direct training sense. It is my sense that Jang/Chang is honest in his dojang that he trained with Myung, Jae Nam (Hankido), then got further involved in Aikido directly through an organization in Japan. If you want to train in Hapkido, Daegu would trump Japan for that in my opinion - and to train in Aikido and claim you do it with "Hapkido" feel is simply disingenuous. Mr. Mercantile (yes, I can play "misspell the name too" - you petulant child) - I could care less about your organizations "technique" - the fact is that your instructor creates false lineage - tries to defend it, uses a name "Hapkiyoosool" more related to Choi Dojunim than the Aikido lineage of his parent organization, wouldn't make me even walk in the door... Yes, I do talk about lineage alot - it is the thing that allows people serious about martial arts to know that they are training in the art that is advertised - the teacher at any particular school might be great, but great at what? Lineage answers that question - even if he is a great low rank - he learned that VIA his lineage. So, ego, corrupted, no, I just don't need to create a false front for my Hapkido. If I am SO wrong Mr. Mercantile, why do you have to spend SO much energy trying to attack my "character" - I talked about Allen's lineage - if I am wrong, prove it. Except, you can't and won't, its easier in this touchy feely age to try and talk about "ego" and "character" - you might want to take that discussion to heart closer to home... No, I won't waste my time "getting on the mat" with you - you got that right, but as much vitriolic spew as you have for me you don't really want to get on the "mat" do you? The O'Hare parking lot might suffice... MaxG, sorry you got drug into this - Mr. Mercantile and his group spend lots of time trying to shore up the dam of mis-truths they have told over the years. And, for the record, I will repeat what I said in my first post, if lineage in "Hapkido" does not matter, and the dubious nature of many of the things that the instructor has said does not bother you, then join and all power to you.
Yeah, I guess if the art of Hapkido and its integrity are of little concern you might find these issues "hilarious" - so keep laughing...
take it easy dude. for a supposed serious martial artist, you sure like picking fights all the time. i know because i looked at your post history on this and other sites. i'm not into picking fights and the whole online flame war thing, so i'll apologize right off for any supposed insult you think i've made to you.
Google results for GM Chang http://www.google.com/search?q=gran...s=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a Google results for GM Jang http://www.google.com/search?q=gran...s=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a Imagine how confused someone looking into the background (like the OP) of that particular branch would be right about now... Just saying people. Seems counter productive to me. :dunno: but that's just imho. I'm done with this topic. Can already tell it's not gonna end well. Just leave me out of it.
Giovanni, if you "know" then you actually might understand that I only "pick" fights when I feel that Hapkido is being misrepresented - and if supporting a viewpoint based on the mainline of the art is wrong, then call me wrong. You should be examining why I wrote my initial post instead of thinking anyone is being flamed - you might learn something you didn't "know".
Iron OX, We have been back and forth with this so many times, yet you seem to be the one that wants to take a mistake and turn it into something. I will start first with GM Jang. His 1st and 2nd degrees were under Ji Han Jae. This was when Ji was still under the direction of Choi Young Sul. GM Jang was put under the direction of Ji who was the chief instructor of the school. The certificates at this time had Choi's signature not Ji's. This was also when the art was still called Hap Ki Yoo Sool. Jang was then put under the direction of Han Bong Soo were he received his 3rd Dan. This is when Han had a contract with Osan AF base. When Han left Korea to come to the U.S. GM Jang went under Myung Jae Nam. This is also when Jang took over the contract at Osan where he's been ever since. Under Myung the name of the art became Hap Ki Sool. Around 1969 GM Jang wanted to open his own school, however not having the money to do so, what allot of ppl did back then was to find someone to sponsor them. Mr.Kang who was a hotel owner helped raise money in the community for GM Jang to open a school. Him and his students built the school with their bare hands. Later on while still under Myung the art formally went by Hap Ki Do. GM Jang only kept is first 2 certificates on the wall of the school, which you can see in some pictures. Master Allen said the mistake came from seeing GM Jang's first 2 certificates, with Choi's signature on the. And assumed that he trained directly under him. So in a nut shell GM Jang could by legitimacy call his art Hapkiyusul, hapkisul, or hapkido. He has certificates bearing all three names. As far as Master Allen. He spent all his time under GM Jang receiving his 5th Dan, before coming to the U.S. So you may not like what we do and that's fine. But keep it to yourself. When someone has asked me where there is a hapkido school in Chicago, I don't say "don't go to there is school bla, bla, bla" . Max was inquiring about us, and you jump the gun and shoot off at the mouth. If he wants to check out the school then it should be up to him to decide, not for you to decide for him. btw,MaxG I apologise for using your post to reply to Iron Ox. I would not spend one red cent to come your way. I could care less about you, until you start running off at the mouth! But any time you want to come my way I would be more than happy. See cause if you come here, then it's a threat and I would feel much better afterwards. See I can control my ego.
Thank you for your apology. However I must point out it was not me that wanted to check the school out. It was not me that started this thread. It was not me inquiring about the website. I must reiterate that my comments were strictly in how Chang versus Jang could be confusing to the OP (not me).
i don't think hapkido needs you to stick up for it. i think it can make it on it's own. and i feel that your tone is always very aggressive; maybe that's just your writing style. but i do understand where you're coming from, or at least i'm trying to understand. and you're right, i have lots to learn. so please don't think i'm calling you out or anything like that. sometimes my writing style has people thinking i'm an impetuous *******. (laughing) but this thread has got me thinking...
