I agree with the thrust of your point. I especially agree that far it is far too difficult to cross compare ranks from styles to styles & at times from schools to schools within the same named style. There are simply too many factors! I would say however that if a person came to me as a BB or 2nd degree from another style, while they technically may not know about every aspect of my style up to that level of BB, they certainly are not pure white belts within my system, as a white to me & within my ITF TKD signifies innocence, no previous knowledge. So I as an instructor would not feel 100% comfortable with that new student wearing a white belt & being put in the same category as brand new white belts with no MA training at all. I would also not like to have the new student with such prior experience compete as a white belt in a tournament, as they would have such an unfair advantage over true beginners. Another point I would like to add to or expand on is the comparison to the academic degrees. While they do not convert, compare or translate exactly AND they still CAN' T be compared like that to other MAs, but a comparison does have some merit. For example I often equate for ITF TKD, that the color belt or gup level of training & certification is similiar to a basic education of primary school level. While 1st - 3rd Dan is like earning a high school diploma, then some technical or community college education. A certified international instructor from the 4th Dan to 6th Dan level is sort of like a college graduate with a 4 year degree. Then our master instructors of 7th & 8th Dan are sort of like a person who earned a masters degree from graduate school. Then of course our highest degree, the 9th Dan, which has the title of grandmaster reserved for them, is sort of like the terminal academic degree, the Doctorate or PhD. (But this analogy is limited more to levels & timed trained, not depth or breath of knowledge or even level of difficulty or challenges.)
While I have Dr. Kimm's book & think it is valuable, I am not someone with much Hapkido knowledge or experince at all. So while I know this may be off point, I tried to click on the link, but it did not work, I was wondering what those that really train & understand Hapkido felt about his book about the History of Korea & Hapkido? From what I know about Korean history, the book does a good job with that section.
Sorry for the bad link, try this one http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=116904 I think you did find it though and I answered your question there. The short version is that I was not impressed with the 'Korean History' but I liked the History of Hapkido that wa spresented. There are better sources for Korean History but not many better sources (available and in English) for the Hapkido history presented.
Hi all My friend sent me this Doju Chinil Chang awarded 9th Dan certificate # 1 from Dojunim Choi in 1980. Hope that helps the good work here!
Hmmmm.. that is interesting information. If true, that would move Chang Chin-il to the most senior position, being awarded 9th dan before anyone else on our list (including Ji Han-jae and Kim Moo-hong). Any way to verify this (photo or other source)? This interview with GM Lim Hyun-soo states that Chang Chin-il Dojunim was promoted before him (before 1983), so that would support it partially - http://user.chol.com/~jungki74/report/tkd_times/times_7.jpg That would make out list look like so.... - Chang Chin-il (1980 - from Choi Yong-sool Dojunim, accepted the second Doju-ship from Choi Yong-sool Dojunim in 1985) - Ji Han-jae (1981 - 9th dan from the Sae Ma Eul Hapkido Association) - Kim Moo-hong (1981 - 9th dan from the Sae Ma Eul Hapkido Association) -Lim Hyun-soo (1983 - promoted to 9th dan by Choi Yong-sool Dojunim) - photo of dan certificate on http://www.jungkikwan.com/ - Kim Yung-sang (1984 - 9th dan from Choi Yong-sool Dojunim, offered 10th dan from Choi Yong-sool Dojunim in 1985, which was refused, offered the 3rd "Doju"ship from Choi Dojunim's daughter-in-law in 2002 and accepted.) - Lee Yong-soo (1984 - 9th dan from Choi Yong-sool Dojunim, offered 10th dan from Choi Yong-sool Dojunim in 1985, which was refused)
Hi-- I dont have anything but that. But also I read elsewhere that Doju Chang had certificate # 1 that predates master Im's and all the others(maybe master Im could verify it because they would know who is 1,2,3 and dates?). I believe its solid information because I just asked for the certificate number and date and nothing else like why i wanted to know it. I believe all the photos and info will be available soon because they are working on some writing/photos and such that will clear it all up. So I guess we have to wait for that. Sorry I couldnt be of more help on that.
Is chang chin il still teaching in NYC? I might have mentioned this on another thread, but i have a friend who'd be interested in joining, even if there is an screening process, etc.
Yes, he is still teaching from what i saw but with a large closed door group. Dont know anything more than that.
Hapkido evolved from Choi Yong Sool quite a bit, any claims to "Original" is hard to substantiate fully and would be a false claim because it is very subjective. Let me explain. As a student of Ji Han Jae I can tell you most of his seniors all know the same skills but often do things a bit different not on purpose but because we are all different people and cannot be clones of our teacher if we wanted to. I can be a direct student but cannot claim all my skills are "Original" meaning identical to Doju Ji's. Same with Choi's lineage, Lim does not do the same HKD as Kim yet both are 9th Dans, all one has to do is watch them both and it will be apparent they processed the art differently according to their own unique traits. Teachers often teach different things to different people and in different ways and at different times of their life. They might have taught differently when they were younger vs. older. They may have changed certain techniques around over time so an earlier student learned differently then a later one. I do not believe for a moment Choi taught just what his teacher taught him, because it is not humanly possible. As far as 9th Dan goes it is mostly honorary past 4 or 5 dan. HKD curriculum in most schools ends at 4th Dan. For all intents and purposes at some point it becomes hard to say a 9th dan is better then a 6th, 7th or 8th. What happens at those levels is people's own personal refinement and deeper understanding are developed based on their own personally. What a wise Master does is recognize each of his own students abilities and promotes them as individuals not clones, especially in HKD. What Choi did in his last years is what many teachers do, they search for dedicated people who will in some way will carry their legacy to the next generation and promote them to high dans 9th and sometimes 10th dans. This rarely has to do with who is the best technicians or fighters. Master Ji Han Jae has more the 600 students over 6th Dan world wide in over 50 yrs of teaching. Maybe 60ish 8th Dans and 20ish 9th dans and now a few 10th dans. Of course Doju Ji had a much bigger following then Choi did but Ji only has a hand full of closer higher ranking students. As I matured I see higher rank is often misunderstood by junior students. High rank is usually awarded for self development and personal refinement in the arts as an individual not to show who is better the anyone else, we are all different. Just my 2 cents FWIW. Sinmoo, Stuart Rosenberg
