Hapkido History and 9th/10th dan"?

Discussion in 'Hapkido' started by iron_ox, May 24, 2013.

  1. klaasb

    klaasb ....

    I feel that threads like these help hapkido to grow.
  2. Giovanni

    Giovanni Well-Known Member Supporter

    agreed. and i also like how much the art has grown with many different influences. i get where kevin is coming from, this is what the jungki kwan is marketing, no?

    but also, look at how ji han-jae grew the art in this country. look at how other masters grew the art. look at how my teacher (whose teacher trained directly with the founder) has taught so many people about hapkido for over 30 years in chicago. look at how ksw, hankido, combat hapkido are all parts of this fabulous tree of knowledge that started with one man, choi.

    i just think it's a bit short-sighted to say "this is hapkido, all that other stuff is not". everyone knows that this all came from choi, but allow it to grow.

    look at aikido. several styles have evolved over the years, even when ueshiba was still alive: yoseikan, yoshinkan, shodokan, iwama, ki. and there are many, many organizations all over the world that purport to spread the art, not one, only. there's no question those are all still "aikido".

    regarding whether kevin divulges his rank, who cares. that's not important. what's important is hapkido.
  3. klaasb

    klaasb ....

    and growing doesn't always happen linear.
    When I look at what Kim Yun-sang taught and what I see others teach, yes, some styles have actually lost some technique and depth.
    Of course when it comes to hankido I would call that, biased as I am, a step forward. Where I am sure that others see it as a step back or side ways.
  4. Thomas

    Thomas Combat Hapkido/Taekwondo

    I respectfully disagree.

    Compared to even a dozen years ago, there is so much more communication and interaction between people of different kwans. This kind of interaction has opened the door for so much more sharing, training, and tolerance than a few years ago. Being able to discuss openly, ask questions, and even get on the mat together has done a lot for Hapkido.

    No need to call me "Master"... Thomas is fine.

    Kevin's a grown man who's been in the martial arts a long time. It's his choice what he wants to share.

    I've known him in an online perspective for many years now and I don't doubt him. I also know some of the people in the Jungki Kwan who have given him their endorsement by including him in their organization. I look forward to future interaction with him (online and someday on the mat).
  5. Dwi Chugi

    Dwi Chugi Valued Member

    Thank you Thomas, I'm a pretty informal guy too. Titles with me are unnecessary as well.

    I agree discussions are good but the my style is better than yours or my style is the only true style under Choi gets a little old.

    I have studied several different arts and I have to say Hapkido is the best street defensive style there is. We are not always respected by other systems because sometimes we appear we do not have our act together.

    If you say that these boards help our growth, I am all for it.

    I even respect that Kevin feels that he is in one of the only true systems under Grandmaster Choi, but what I find odd, why not tell us his history when he spends most of his time on here questioning our masters history.

    Like most of the Hapkido practitioners I know,I am passionate about my master and my system but it is not my place to call out other masters and systems and call them suspect when I or my master don't agree with them.

    I would love to see some of the systems get together, talk, train and share knowledge. That would rock and I hope I'm invited.

    I know Kevin invited me to his Dojang and I hope to make it there one day. I would love to train with as many masters and instructors as possible. I think that is what grows the art.

    Just my two cents, for what it is worth. :)
  6. Thomas

    Thomas Combat Hapkido/Taekwondo

    Nice post (in its entirety).
    I especially agree with the "only true style" discussions as being 'old'.

    I think they are very important, especially in the way we present things. A lot of HKD and non-HKD people read this stuff. If people get the impression that Hapkido people are bunch of immature, name-calling people who can't discuss thing civilly, that hurts our image. If people think we have no clue of our history and that we repeated put-downs from others about different groups, that makes us look bad.

    If we can get along, acknowledge the similarities and difference and move on to discuss substance and do good training, people will respect that.

    I think the past 10 years or so have shown great improvements in relations between Hapkido Kwans. I think some of that is from mature conversations online and from spending time on the mat with different groups.

    There are some fine lines here though.

    On one hand, there are a lot of people who have bought rank in Hapkido or established groups that play more on the name than substance. I don't think its wrong to ask directly about these things and expect honest answers.

    If someone is suddenly claiming a 10th dan in Hapkido, I see no harm in asking him where he got it from and what his training history is. For that matter, if someone chooses to post under their own name here, they should be willing to discuss their own background.

    It should be done respectfully though.

    Do it whenever you can! If you are in Northern NY, let me know - drop in!
    I agree. I have been fortunate to be able to get on the mat with quite a few HKD instructors (several from online) and it is so cool to see the similarities and differences and share. Once you get on the mat with someone from a different system, it's so easy to see where our roots merge.
  7. klaasb

    klaasb ....

    MAP meet is coming up ;)

    I would be up for a nice Korea trip with ya all ;)
  8. iron_ox

    iron_ox Jungki Kwan Midwest

    Hello all,

    After great reflection, I will say again simply that I make no claims to high rank, and my history is well documented on my web site.

    Having read through the pages of posts that are here in Hapkido forum, I realize that the same material is raised again and again. I have never had a single person come to my dojang and tell me that my posts here made then come in; and frankly it is becoming pointless to rehash the same stuff over and over. In addition, trying to remain respectful in the face of often bold faced lies and hypocrisy is becoming harder. And all too often the method of answering a question becomes a chance to simply divert the issue somewhere else; which lead me to ponder that even if one makes a stellar argument it is often at the risk of losing something else - like coming in second in a race of one.

    So, my research, which will be appropriately documented, will be available only on my website. While I see many sincere people here, putting on a bullseye for the sake of it to represent the truth is only productive IF IT IS PRODUCTIVE. For me sadly, this has not been the case for some time.

    My rank certificates are at the front of my school for anyone to see who wishes, even if they don't want to come in. Some of my other rank is hanging on the wall near the changing rooms, and the rest is in a box on a shelf. I have NEVER listed rank on my website, because it is not the most relevant thing to worry about in training; but I also don't claim any rank I have not earned.

    If my rank seems suspect, don't come to my dojang, simple as that.

    After 33 odd years, teaching and training in several parts of the world, I am accountable only to my instructors and my students.

    My senior male student has been with me since 1988, and he has had an opportunity to train with several others, and stayed around with me, so I'm lucky there. And it is to my students I now feel deserve my time. My senior female student since 1995.

    That all being said, I take my leave.
  9. Thomas

    Thomas Combat Hapkido/Taekwondo

    Sounds a bit overly dramatic.

    Share what you want and participate on the topics you choose to.

    But, if you are going to make claims about Hapkido history, your 'lineage'/legitimacy of your training or rank or whatever, then expect people to ask questions and for them to expect a response.

    Taking your "leave" instead of answering just makes it look like your earlier bold claims may have had some holes in it. You might take it as "hypocrisy" or "bold faced lies" or "coming in second", but in reality it's just a conversation. You seem to love to put people on the spot, but when it turns back at you, you take "your leave"?

    I hope not. I'd rather see you stick around and take part in the discussions that come up.
  10. Dwi Chugi

    Dwi Chugi Valued Member

    I could do a trip back to Korea. That would be awesome.
  11. klaasb

    klaasb ....

    Why is it so difficult to say:
    1987 - started
    1993 - 1st dan
    1997 - 2nd dan
    1999 - 3rd dan
    2004 - 4th dan
    2009 - 5th dan

    Took me 2 minutes or so.
  12. tkdhkddave

    tkdhkddave Valued Member

    I don't get the impression that anyone who's posted on this so far has had a problem disclosing their rank. You chaps have asked Kevin and he has said, no problem come to my dojang and I'll show you, sounds ok to me, I would have no issue with anyone saying that.

    I think everyone on here is passionate about HKD and that is a great thing. Personally I think GM Lim et al are doing something very very close to what Choi was doing and for me and others that is important, as without this reference material where would all the "other" HKD systems be now? so I can understand the passion anyone would have for keeping it intact and undiluted, and teaching it is an important job, that is just my opinion anyhow.

    "There are NO secrets in HKD, only undiscovered truths"

  13. Dwi Chugi

    Dwi Chugi Valued Member

    My issue is not with Kevin being proud of his Hapkido or Master Lim. In fact, I respect his passion about Jungki Kwan Hapkido. My issue is him calling out other well know Hapkido-in and calling their back grounds suspect when he will not post his.

    I have seen several posts on here, martialtalk, bullshido and other sites where he comes out and asks people their back grounds and then argues with them. I have seen him make some great instructors eat crow so to speak. Some probable deserved it and some I think he went way over board.

    It is a free country so he can give out any information he wants. But, in my opinion, he looses credibility when he won't give us the same information he asks of others.

    I don't think he can have it both ways. If he is going to post the stuff he posts then he is going to have to expect there are going to be questions back at him. He can not post that he's taking a time out and expect everyone to say "ok" when the kitchen gets too hot.

    Since his dojang is a two day drive from my dojang, just showing up is not practical. Him saying, "I trained here or there; under this teacher or that teacher; I do distant learning under Master Lim in Korea for this long", is much easier.

    I do not have the luxury to travel to Korea once a year to train with Master Lim as a distant learning student. I do have the honor of having my Master and hour and fifteen minutes north of me and our Grandmaster (that was a direct student under Choi) a put two hours west of me. So my on going training is more consistent.

    I can admit my pro's and con's of my training. I hold a 4th Dan in Hapkido under Master Berry and Grandmaster Park and a 5th Dan in Taekwondo. I can go look at the dates of my certificates if everyone wants to know when I received all my ranks.

    Just my two cents, for what's it worth.
  14. Giovanni

    Giovanni Well-Known Member Supporter

    agree, you can't have it both ways. i could care less whether he divulges rank. but to say some of the things that kevin has said on this forum and many others, then when questions are asked of him and his teachers and associates to not answer and be really evasive...no, he can't have it both ways.

    and it's not just on the internet. i've talked with former students and they've said the same thing--"this is real hapkido, that other stuff is not". that answer usually comes about when we talked about our training at hyun's hapkido in chicago in comparison to the jungki kwan. personally, that has always bugged me about my conversations with kevin. my teacher's teacher trained with the founder directly. to say that it's "not hapkido", to me, is just misguided.

    thomas quoted research that someone undertook and wrote a book about. to just say it's all "lies" or "inaccurate" is a bit preposterous without giving a reason.

    my only point in this ramble--one i've made before--is that hapkido is much bigger than just the jungki kwan, and that's a good thing. and we all should just get along.
  15. JTMS

    JTMS Valued Member

    Folks that live in a glass house shouldn't throw stones.
  16. Thomas

    Thomas Combat Hapkido/Taekwondo

    Regarding Gunter Bauer (the 10th dan listed under the AMAUK), I indicated that I had never heard of him before...
    A few days ago, in a PM, Kevin reminded me that Mr. Bauer had indeed come up several years ago in a couple of discussions. He offered this link to the topic: http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31744&highlight=gunter+bauer

    Kevin also indicated that we had discussed Mr. Bauer in the context of some seminars that GM Pellegrini had attended. I didn't recall that discussion (and still don't), but it very well may have happened. Over the years, I have never heard GM Pellegrini mention him, so I don't attach a close degree of association between them (if any).

    Regardless, I would like to hear from anyone else who knows anything about Mr. Bauer. He is listed as a "10th dan", which would make him a prime candidate for discussion in this thread.
  17. Dwi Chugi

    Dwi Chugi Valued Member

    I think wishing that all Hapkido would unite is a little far fetch. It would be nice but that will never happen. There are a lot of great organizations out there that do good for the art. Those are the ones that I want to focus on and talk about.

    The Jungki Kwan is probably one of the Kwans that is trying to move Hapkido forward; but I agree, Hapkido is much bigger than just one Kwan. I also agree it is a good thing as long as what people are teaching under the name Hapkido can be traced to the founder and is quality instruction.

    I have a lot of martial arts schools in my area. I get along with 2/3's of them. The other 1/3 I have not yet met. My city is a smaller one (50,000 people) but my dojang is full between my Taekwondo and Hapkido programs. I do not know or care what anyone else teaches. I don't talk about them to anyone that comes in to see my school. In fact, not too long ago, I recommended one of the BJJ/MMA gyms to someone that would fit better there than at my dojang. That same gym owner has sent me a student or two. It's all good.

    I would personally like to see Hapkido change its negativity toward its own. Maybe world piece would be an easier goal. But it starts with me. I hope to get to train with some of you guys one day.
  18. marinevet63031

    marinevet63031 Hapkido/Koryo Gumdo/TKD

    I have found a lot of good Hapkido and a lot of bad Hapkido. It is my personal thought that, if you worry about everything people say and do then you are not training hard enough yourself.
    I have a better opinion of those Hapkido practitioners who enjoy their training, train hard, and try and be positive. From my understanding, if you are the head of a Kwan then 8th Dan is not an unreasonable rank. Anything after 6th is just honorary right? That's the rules I only follow them.
    7,8,9 whatever means time and contribution to an art. Consider the following: Choi started teaching DRAJJ, he called it Yawara right? So to involve more techniques such as kicking per se, this changes Yawara to Hapkido.
    Yawara is the Korean word for JuJutsu right? If I am incorrect then please let me know guys.
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2013
  19. marinevet63031

    marinevet63031 Hapkido/Koryo Gumdo/TKD

    This speaks volumes I believe.
  20. jaggernautico

    jaggernautico Valued Member

    I really enjoyed this thread. Alot of interesting responses. I do agree with Dwi Chugi's last post and his sentiments.
    I am not a hapkidoist but I find it a fascinating system. I got a chance to meet Grandmaster Chinil Chang and I found him to be an enormously positive and a tremendous teacher. Not a hint of negativity or defensiveness. I didnt know what to expect because of all of the negative stuff written about him. He was more than gracious and answered many questions.
    I dont know why Iron Ox didnt divulge his ranks since he does run a commercial school and is probably public knowledge at least to his students. I thought it should have been a frankly easy thing to do considering he seems to be doing some sort of research on the system and is very invested in it as a student and a teacher.

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