I'm not sure why you really have interest in Grandmaster Adams, except through me to try and validate Seo In Sun. Master Joo "retired" and moved to France to open a restaurant...I wasn't there and didn't care much... He set up the GBHA, and I am not sure when he started to sign certificates, I have never asked, but he has never claimed to be a 10th dan, and I believe within his organization the highest rank he has issued is 5th dan, but I don't know. Who is giving him a "hard time"? He claims 10th dan in Hapkido...from whom? He hands out 9th dan ranks. Not so for Fred. No pass, but he hardly is doing the same thing that Seo In Sun is doing. Why would I worry about issued rank that hardly equates to a 9th dan? What is my argument Thomas? Seo In Sun claims 10th dan in Hapkido and issues 9th dans...does Fred do that? No. And again, my argument is that people should have a documented rank to Choi Dojunim, and if you claim 10th dan in Hapkido, that's dubious. That is why I go out of my way to train in Korea with Grandmaster Lim. I'm lucky I can do that. When I am claiming to be a 9th dan, or a 10th dan; and issuing 9th dans, as this thread indicates, maybe that would matter....until them, my site lists most of whats relevant. No, you want to muddy the waters, MORE, by misdirecting information about 10th dan Hapkido practitioners. I'm not relevant to that discussion. Asked, and answered. Which is why, knowing that your instructors, instructors, rank issuer is a 1st or 3rd dan, and its clear you will try to validate your material by diverting attention. Sad really.
sorry i'm a bit late to this thomas, but just noticed kim jong yoon in your list. i'm just wondering because i trained with ks hyun, who trained with kim jong yoon. just wondering if or what kimm's book says about him and hanpul. what is the title of "doju" anyway? i'm assuming it's a hapkido designation.
Actually that wasn't my goal. I was curious about your background - you're a very vocal proponent of certain things and as this conversation developed, there were some "weird things" coming up about you. I tried the direct approach to ask you your lineage/rank trail and was surprised by the evasion. Normally you are very forthcoming, brutally so, about all things Hapkido and you generally don't mind a bit of thread drift. Like I said... weird So let's see. GM Seo In-sun gets a 1st dan in Hapkido directly from Choi Dojunim (and later a 3rd dan from a Hapkido group), spends his life in a related art, working up the ranks and then forms his own umbrella KMA group (focused on Hapkido) and is awarded a 10th dan from that group of Hapkido (and related) martial artists. In turn, he teaches, guides, and tests people for rank from the Hanminjok Hapkido Association. GM Fred Adams gets a 1st dan from a (supposed) student of Choi Dojunim and then forms his own group and picks up rank from an athletic clearinghouse that offers rank in any system you want, eventually earning an 8th dan. In turn, he teaches, guides and tests people for rank. I can see the similarities and can't understand why you continually bash GM Seo In-sun but cover for Gm Fred Adams. My guess is that you got rank from GM Adams and would look silly for all the spouting you do about people who got rank from GM Seo In-sun because he was "only" a 1st dan under Choi Dojunim... 8th dan is pretty close to 9th dan and as you said, the majority of HKD practitioners got their rank from him in the UK. Is his rank (I presume 2nd dan to 8th dan) from the AMAUK even remotely valid? How is it tied to Choi Dojunim? You don't have an issue with his claims of 8th dan in "Hapkido"? So, wait, instead of answering what should be a very simple question here, you would answer it on a thread that had that as the topic? I could start a new topic, but that seems like a waste for what should be simple. I notice on your site that you don't list any ranks (although you are listed as a "Jungki Master" - what rank is that? 4th dan? 5th dan? Whichever, it would seem like you made rank very quickly under GM Lim, especially if you factor in that you don't train full time under him (or, it seems) under a more senior Jungki Master. Granted, that could mean that your previous rank was reconciled/recognized and you were brought in at a higher level than 1st dan. But if your previous rank was from someone who "only" had a 1st dan from a (supposed) student of Choi Dojunim, couldn't that be potentially embarrassing? That would mean that others, who trained directly under Choi Dojunim, even up to 1st or 3rd dan (GM Seo In-sun, GM Ji Han-jae, GM Kim Moo-hong, etc.) would be just as, if not more, valid. Relevant to the conversation here? Yes. Easy to answer? Should be. Well, I am asking you for your rank trail. You could probably answer it in one easy post right here, or we can start a new thread. I think it's relevant (and easy to answer). I don't need to validate my material. My rank trail, that of my instructor (Robert Gray), that of his instructor (GM John Pellegrini), and that of his instructor (GM Seo In-sun) all do that on their own. They all link to the founder of Hapkido and represent a different version of the art. I don't pretend to teach anything other than "Combat Hapkido". If I was claiming some sort of connection to Choi's original art or 'orthodox hapkido', then you'd have a good argument to dig into. No, Kevin, here's what is sad. I like you and I enjoy our discussions, but every single time you feel like someone is questioning you or presenting something that doesn't fit your narrow views, you go on the attack. This time, you got called on your own background and have no response. I had wondered earlier in this thread where you made some bold claims, were countered, and then clammed up and didn't come back for a while (and when you did, you avoided the questions that had come up earlier). Are you finding that Hapkido is a bit murkier than you may have been led to believe?
There's quite a bit. Here's a short summary... (according to Dr. Kimm's book, pp.285-291, 572-576) Kim Jeong Yun was born in 1938 near Taegu. Kim Jeong Yun was preparing to become an instructor (to take Moon Jong Won's position) and entered Choi Yong-sool Dojunim's school in 1958. He received instruction directly from Choi Dojunim. For six months, he learned joint manipulations (and his partner was Choi Dojunim), then after 6 months he worked with Moon Jong Won. He trained diligently for 2 years. When Moon Jong Won went to Busan, Choi Yong-sool Dojunim appointed Kim Jeong Yun instructor. After 6 years of training with Choi Yong-sool Dojunim, he felt that he had learned most of Choi Dojunim's techniques. He also learned how to expand them and develop/systemize them into a curriculum. In 1962 Kim Jeong Yun wrote a book of "Hapki SUl" with 90 pictures and one hundred pages. This is the only book Choi Dojunim and he published on Hapkido. They used the name "Hapki Sul" and this created confusion with Ji Han-jae's use of the term "Hapkido". He felt that this book had been finished too quickly and he was not satisfied. He did feel it is the only book that recorded Choi Dojunim's art. He had wanted to film Choi Dojunim but after Choi Dojunim's stroke, decided not to. One concern that he had was that Choi Dojunim didn't have names for the techniques (or even for the art - it had gone by Yawara, Yu Kwon Sul, Yu Eun Sul, Hapki Sul, and Kido). In trying to create a name, he tried out Han Ki Un, Han Ba Ram, and eventually settled on "Han Pul" (Traditional Energy). He also named all of the techniques in it. He introduced the name to Choi Dojunim but Choi did not approve it. In May 1965, Kim Jeong Yun called his teaching system "Han Pul". He saw it as a development upon Choi Dojunim's art. Generally people look at it as the title of "founder", but since Choi Dojunim was prepared to pass it on before his death, it might be better looked at as "Do (way/art)" + "Ju (leader)". In any way, it's the head of the art, especially the founder.
Not weird, but my training and credentials are not the subject of this thread. From whom did he receive a 10th dan in a related art? His brother has no rank in Hapkido does he? How do you make that supposition? An athletic clearinghouse...now you are being obtuse...the Amateur Martial Association is one of the largest martial arts organizations in the world! With Masters from a huge number of styles. "BASH" - STOP IT THOMAS, he is a 1st dan in Hapkido and the rest of his rank in his brothers self styled Kuk Sool Won...hardly ever related to Hapkido at all! I cover for no one...you can make your own opinion, but Fred has never handed out 9th dans after weekend seminars. Thomas, misdirection again, I said they trained with him. I do not stand on his rank. You have to stand on Seo In Suns - how is Kuk Sool Won rank equal to Hapkido rank from Choi Dojunim....ANSWER that first before you try to castigate someone who is not involved. If I issue you rank its valid for you, right? I have made no comments about validity except those addressed by others. Don't really see how. I have no interest in answering it here or elsewhere, as it is not relevant to issues you will not and cannot address about your own rank that you continue to use to bolster your arguments.
thanks thomas! this is pretty consistent with what i've gotten from ks hyun regarding his teacher and hanpul. basically, hyun called hanpul a style of hapkido. this would also corroborate why choi was around kim's school, giving my teacher the opportunity to meet choi. seemingly though, kim later broke off. but based on hyun's biographical information on his site, hyun had been training with kim since '58, well before any split.
Hello Giovanni, You make and interesting, maybe, accidental observation... Master Kim started training with Choi Dojunim in 1958 (According to the above referenced book) - so Hyun could not have trained with him at his own dojang then... He did not have his own dojang until 1964 or 1965. I believe much of the material in this book to be inaccurate, and look forward to taking a copy to Korea to see what the various participants say...
this is where i got it... http://www.hyunshapkido.com/trainer/grand-master-k-s-hyun next time you go and you take the book, let us know what you find.
Wow, I never meant to cause so much fuss with my post, it really was not my intention. So anyway for the record, Kevin told me about our HKD being similar and as he has been involved in ma and HKD from nearly before I was born and knowing of his instructors I respect his training and HKD knowledge he has. As for other bb coming to our Dojang, I'm just stating observations from my own experiences with them, we are not superhuman and don't possess crazy HKD skills, more likely that our syllabus up to BB is only 100 (mainly no nonsense) techniques so not loads but you have to know them well which should give you a strong foundation, now just speculating but if the people I saw went from white to black in a few years and skimmed over lots of techniques then that would do it I suppose just didn't think that was common in Korea for example? and fwwiw we play nicely I wouldn't be awkward, resist and be a pain in the butt when they apply technique and I would not make them feel bad if they couldn't apply it, I'm always willing to learn regardless, I train regular and DO feel the locks and pain, again ffiw I have trained in the past JuJitsu and the same thing happened there with regards applying locks, throws etc. As for Fred, I don't see his relevance to this conversation, however usually I would say drop him a line but he cannot reply at the moment due to bad health but I will say his rank is equal to his experience and HKD knowledge period. He has promoted only up to 5th dan, and to be quite honest if a 1st dan can produce techniques and 5th dans like I have seen then he's a flipping genius lol Anybody care to anwser my question about training with Choi's students?
No problem. I don't know for sure. I sent an e-mail to the Association asking about it. If I get a response, I will share what it says. I would imagine, and this is pure speculation, that since the Hanminjok Hapkido Association is a group of affiliated related Kwans of (non-TKD) Korean Martial Arts, that the board met and decided to promoted GM Seo In-sun to 10th dan as head of the organization. Don't quote me, but that's what I suspect. Yes, but to paraphrase your own arguments - are these 'Masters' (from a huge number of styles) even remotely related to Hapkido? Do they have a link back to Choi Dojunim? Can you honestly say that rank from here is "valid"? Now, if you can approve of the AMAUK being a vast diverse group of instructors of various arts who get together and offer rank promotion to its members... how can you disapprove of the Hanminjok Hapkido Association doing basically the same thing (except with much more closely related martial arts members)? I took a closer look at the AMAUK and see that they have a 10th dan in Hapkido on their roster... which brings us back to the topic. Anyone know much about Soke Gunter Bauer? As a 10th dan, is he the person who issued ranks to GM Fred Adams? Here's a quick bit of digging to see if his name rings any bells... According to this, He has an 8th dan from (Hwal Moo Hapkido) Grandmaster Moon Byoeng-Tae, a 9th Dan in Hapkido and Thai Boxing. http://www.gakedojo.net/gunter.htm Although on GM Moon's page, Soke Bauer is not mentioned... http://www.hwalmoodo.com/en/hwalmoodo.php Bullshido took a look at him: http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=19722 A list of his seminars http://www.gunterbauer.webspace.virginmedia.com/Events.html Another listing as a “10th dan Hapkido” http://www.docstoc.com/docs/74517860/Soke-Andy-McGill-10-Dan-Kenpo-England-Soke-Gunter-Bauer-10-Dan Seminar in Scotland http://scottishfightingarts.webs.com/apps/blog/show/19265450-hapkido-master-class Awarding rank in Scotland http://sport.caithness.org/article.php?id=281 Anyone know about his history in Hapkido, especially the 9th or 10th dans he claims? You've mentioned promotions after weekend seminars several times now. I am not familiar with them (never did any promotions after a seminar). Since we are on the topic of 9th dans though, I will ask. How does GM Lim Hyun-soo handle promotions of students who are 'long distance' ones who train by attending seminars (such as yourself). Is there a test at the end of a seminar to check skills? Are there required hours of training? Is there a time in grade requirement? Actually you said... "and the vast majority of Hapkido in the UK are students of Grandmaster Adams." Not misdirection really, just an assumption on my part. I assumed that if the majority of the HKD students in the UK are students of his, that he was issuing the rank (or at least authorising lower ranked instructors to do so). So, are they getting rank from somewhere other than their teacher? Why? Hold up a moment. You don't have to stand on his rank? Why not? Were you issued rank by him? If you follow the definitions you've presented time and time again, then his rank is only equal to a 1st dan as that's the only rank that was issued to him by a direct line to Choi Dojunim. Or, when you joined Jung Ki Kwan, did you "start over" at 1st dan and work your way up? As far as me standing on GM Seo In-sun, I really don't have to either. My rank is in "Combat Hapkido" and it is issued from the founder of the system. Sure, it's nice that the founder can document his rank back to Choi Yong-sool in each case, but since he is doing something that is not being claimed as "traditional' or 'orthodox' hapkido, it really doesn't matter. It's sort of like Choi Yong-sool Dojunim's rank - who made him the "founder" and who issued him rank? That's a strange comment. What do you mean? If you offered me rank, I would probably not accept it unless I trained with you for an extended period of time, learned your curriculum, and then demonstrated my knowledge of it. If you were offering rank in Kevin-fu (with you as the founder), I guess we could talk any ranks we want, maybe with me 7th dan and you an 8th dan - that'd be sort of cool. If we were talking "Hapkido", that'd be a bit of a different issue, especially concerning what rank. I imagine that you can promote black belts up to one rank below yours, so you might offer me a 3rd dan if I could demonstrate the required materials, possibly show the correct time in the system, hours of training, etc. I presume the rank would come from your organization (Jung Ki Kwan) instead of directly from you though. Which part? Relevance or how easy it would be to answer? ... about my own rank? Ask away - I will answer anything you want to know about mine. I can even give basic schedules (times and dates) for each grade and when I tested and when I received the ranks and from whom. Let me know what you want to know and I will answer it straight away. I am digging into your rank trail because I am curious (and more so now because of your evasion). As far as my reference to a "dig"... you can't resist, can you? You have to take a cheap shot at Combat Hapkido (Pellgrini [sic]-do) and try to misdirect to a discussion on that. I don't mind a discussion on that, I have lots of info I can share (here or on a different thread). As for diverting to you or 'Fred' or someone else, that's just where the trail leads... I notice no list of ranks - never mind, I will ask on another thread. Hey, wait, this sounds like that "misdirecting" thing you accused me of. To be honest, the ICHF issues rank in "Combat Hapkido" - that's it. Combat Hapkido is a system founded by GM Pellegini and he will tell you that it is not "traditional" Hapkido, it is its own thing. As such, it really needs no link to anywhere beyond him. He does not claim to be passing an art that comes directly from Choi Dojunim or anything. Out of respect to the foundation of the art, he uses the name "Hapkido" (carefully modified with the word 'Combat' to differentiate it) and out of respect, he still seeks instruction from a senior Hapkido Grandmaster (GM Seo In-sun), to continue the Hapkido foundation he learned from GM Wollmershauser and GM Myung Kwang-shik (and others). Now what needs to be answered about rank in "Combat Hapkido"? Paragon? Great word, although I never said that. Like I said before, it is a good book. It actually has sources listed (in Korean and English) and was written by a guy who speaks both languages and who conducted interviews and media research on it. I don't think it's perfect but it sure is a good step in the right direction (well away from the 5000 year old martial art and mountain meditations). By the way, getting a copy is easy - http://www.hanmudo.com/ I don't believe I disputed this. I believe you were arguing over the statement that Choi Dojunim offered the "Doju" ship and 10th dan ranks to other people. Good - I hope you do. I also hope you remember some of the advice I gave you. Remember that when you do interviews that people (especially in Korea) may not give you the complete information immediately because they worry about 'face'. Also, you have to watch the interpreter (if I recall, you don't speak, read or write in Korean at a high level) because they will also flavor the translation. Also, it seems like you will have to make the choice of doing research or training during your short time to Korea that you spend each year.
Heh heh heh - welcome to Hapkido forums! Things are much nicer and more pleasant than they used to be. It's actually great to be able to interact with different people from different backgrounds and dig into some of the history that has been covered up a bit or overlooked. Fun, too! So compared to other Hapkido systems, does it look like something that a 1st dan would set up, or something that a more senior black belt would set up? How much does the curriculum expand past 1st dan? For that mattrer, who issues rank nowadays? Does it come from GM Adams or does it come from the AMAUK? (And do you know Soke Gunter Bauer?) Have you trained with other senior HKD black belts of similar rank (8th dan)? Have you trained with people from other HKD groups of similar ranks (1st-5th dan) and compared them? I have. I did a weekend seminar with GM Seo In-sun. He's awesome - smooth and powerful. Even with limited English skills, he sure can instruct people very well. His seminar was incredible and when he put technique on me (several times), I was impressed with his speed, power, and control.
I would be interested in hearing about Kevin's rank trail. I find it hard to believe that he will not share how he got to where he is. I would think he would be proud, if his ranks are legit. Meanwhile, if you are interested in joining the Jung Ki Kwan as an affiliate school, you may do so for $300.00 with an annual yearly renewal fee of only $100.00. http://www.jungkikwan.com/
Off topic When I go to Korea next I will hopefully have a copy of the book that has been the cause of this thread.
Hi Thomas, I have only trained in Freds organisation re HKD but those first 100 techniques don't look like anything a 1st dan can come up with imo, cliched I know but 1st dan really is a begining step for us, after that it mushrooms and there are lots more techniques. 99.9% of hkd I have trained has been with Freds group of which I have trained with various grades, colour belts, and black 1st -5th and of course Fred, anything else are from those that visit our dojang as mentioned earlier, so yes my experience so far is narrow but as always my mind is open! Gradings tend to be enjoyable and almost relaxed however they are particular with rank, you must be 4th dan to grade colour belts and generally you won't grade your own students, as for dan grade they are all done by Fred with other/s senior dan grade, time in grade is also strictly observed. No one is put forward for grade if there is any doubt of failure or a poor show. There is a 5th dan that grades my students he was probably just about 4th when I started 11 or so yrs ago and only this year he is 5th, is a long time to wait but he does know his stuff. My own instructor is nearly 20 yrs in and 3rd dan. Not sure of Freds links to ama anymore, but here in the UK they are well established and a bona fide group. I just get my ma insurance through them. I will check my certs to see what is on them been ages since I got them out. Sorry never heard of soke Bauer and usually cautious of someone who uses the title, japanese or not. Fred has never mentioned him, the only very high ranking HKD people he has spoke of are his own instructors who were Korean. Dave
No matter how well established they are, I find it odd that a organisation like that hand outs dan certificates. If a board of martial art instructors from different martial arts hands me a hapkido certificate I wouldn't value it.
In my experience, the bulk of the curriculum, at least as far as the physical techniques/footwork/breathing/movement/etc , is introduced by 1st dan. There are new techniques after 1st dan but a lot of it revolves around variations and different applications of previously learned techniques and a LOT more refinement of footwork, breathing, movement, and such. It's not so much that a "1st dan" came up with it, but if he was an astute learner he could pass along the curriculum he had learned up through 1st dan fairly easily. After that, if he didn't have an "actual" instructor beyond 1st dan, but was being graded up to 8th dan by the AMAUK, it makes one wonder what is being taught past 1st dan? Is it in line with any other Hapkido group; is it in line with what Choi Dojunim taught past 1st dan; or what? My advice, as an instructor, is to take a look around and see if there are other instructors to visit or seminars to check out. It wouldn't hurt to broaden your horizons as to what else is out there as far as "Hapkido" (not saying you have to change, just that it's worth looking at other examples for comparison). It sounds good. The question remains though - where is the guidance coming from as far as what time in grade should be, or what should be covered at each level, or what the techniques should look like beyond first dan? If the head of the system only held a 1st dan from a student of Choi Dojunim's, can he legitimately develop and supervise material beyond that? The question remains though - how can a group of non-Hapkido people issue rank in Hapkido? Insurance is good. I'd be curious to see whose name(s) are on them - are they Hapkido people? I'm curious to know more about him. I've never heard of him and the AMAUK has him listed as a 10th dan in Hapkido. It may be a telling illustration to the points raised above.
You raise good points Thomas, as far as I know there are in fact alot more techniques, I have 100 more for second dan, yes of course there are variations on a theme occuring in places naturally but there is also an awful lot more from what I have seen. Like I said earlier you would have to be more than astute to come up with some of the syllabus I have seen imo. I'm always up for more training but tbh here in the UK it's thin on the ground for HKD. Afaik guidance for time in grade comes from Fred, it's his organisation. Although it seems fairly similar to other styles ,groups in that repsect. personally I'm perfectly happy and grateful to say I have a BB from Fred. I don't know if ama issued him grade, tbh I have never felt the need to ask, he has never made any bold claims about rank or training. Personally speaking and without wanting to drag Fred further into this conversation, to me he has only ever been interested in passing on and teaching HKD as it was taught to him by his instructors and nothing more, not diluting adding or subtracting to or from the art, keeping its integrity and that of the instructors, so for me that I why I'm happy to train with them. As for his grades etc this discussion won't go anywhere really as he's the only person who can answer that and as he's ill and doesn't really know about PC's and the internet it will be a long wait lol, one thing he has mentioned is something akin to a hkd memoir that he would like some time to put online which will I think would be nice so I do look forward to that and I hope it happens. about the ama, I guess they are a kind of multistyle umbrella org that provide services etc to martial arts clubs, groups and orgs, like I said I just use them for insurance, everything else comes from International Hapkido.
WOW! What an interesting post. I have always felt that threads like this one are not good for the art of Hapkido or the masters that train in the different styles and Kwans. I do feel the need to say, Master Sogor, that you refusing to answer Master Thomas's request on your rank trail makes you look suspect from our point of view. Especially since you are an advocate on doing what is right in the art. For me, it makes some of your post loose credibility. That's my two cents, for all that it is worth.
