Hapkido History and 9th/10th dan"?

Discussion in 'Hapkido' started by iron_ox, May 24, 2013.

  1. peterc8455

    peterc8455 Valued Member

    I was wondering the same.

    It's also interesting he said "I have been told that the HKD I study here in the UK is as close to Choi's material as can be".

    Well who told him?
     
  2. iron_ox

    iron_ox Jungki Kwan Midwest

    Hello,

    We will have a club in the London area by the fall, with a former Master Level student of Grandmaster Adams, and someone that has trained in the material from the Jungki Kwan.

    Drop me a line if you are interested.
     
  3. iron_ox

    iron_ox Jungki Kwan Midwest

    Well,I for one told him, because I was told that by Grandmaster Lim.
     
  4. peterc8455

    peterc8455 Valued Member

    Now that makes sense from reading your past posts.
     
  5. iron_ox

    iron_ox Jungki Kwan Midwest

    What is the controversy about this statement?

    And further, yes, why would you let someone just "work" a technique? And again not being a smart ass, asking honestly, it is very common that people try to execute defensive techniques on wrist grabs and are unable to break away.
     
  6. iron_ox

    iron_ox Jungki Kwan Midwest

    This is what I was told when I was first in Korea, there were some stylistic differences, but some amazing similarities in the techniques.
     
  7. iron_ox

    iron_ox Jungki Kwan Midwest

    Grandmaster Adams was the first person in the UK to train in Hapkido. He started training with Master Joo, Nak Goon. He was originally from Daegu, and came to the UK and eventually moved to France to open a restaurant.

    Grandmaster Adam's ranks came basically from Master Joo, and the old Korea Hapkido Association in Seoul. The name of Grandmaster Adams' organization was the Great Britain Hapkido Association, he was told that the Kuk Sool Won was the head organization in Korea - but it had no connection at all with Kuk Sool Won of Shu, In Hyuk, or Sulkido or Master Kim.

    The Great Britain Hapkido Association was changed to International Hapkido in 1981, and the vast majority of Hapkido in the UK are students of Grandmaster Adams.

    Many of Grandmaster Adams' higher ranks came from a group called the Amateur Martial Association, primarily, because there was no one else in the UK to get rank from in Hapkido.

    Grandmaster Adams was the first man to teach Hapkido in many places in Europe, West and East.

    It was Grandmaster Adams that told me to get as close to the source of the art as I could, and I think I was lucky to have made the connection to Grandmaster Lim through Master Mike Wollmershauser.
     
  8. Giovanni

    Giovanni Well-Known Member Supporter

    the "controversy" is some people calling something "hapkido" and you saying "it's not, this is". you've made that very clear over time, no? or am i not adequately stating your position? you've told me point blank on this site and over the phone that ks hyun is not hapkido, even though the man purports to teach hapkido. if you told hyun that he doesn't do hapkido, do you think that would not be controversial in his mind?

    i'm asking an honest question too. the poster said that other hapkido and ksw artists (from korea even) come to his dojang and can't perform technique. i'm just wondering, what the heck is he talking about. like you mention, there's always a counter. so did this gentleman counter the technique? and, did the others just quit and not try something else? was it more of a sparring situation where it was expected to do technique against a resisting foe? or were the other practitioners just larp-ers?
     
  9. iron_ox

    iron_ox Jungki Kwan Midwest

    I will say about that photo as well, that Grandmaster Adams always tried to show Master Joo the utmost respect, but he was a paid instructor; the organization was Founded and Presided over by Grandmaster Adams.

    I have lots of copies of notes from the BAKMA meetings, and it is interesting how much control they had over martial arts in the UK back then.
     
  10. Giovanni

    Giovanni Well-Known Member Supporter

    what was master joo's rank? and when did he train with choi? i've read that adams is 8th dan. was joo responsible for those promotions?

    sorry that you have to explain all this. i don't know anything about this so you're getting me up to speed.
     
  11. iron_ox

    iron_ox Jungki Kwan Midwest

    Master Hyun's rank is in Han Pul, it is not the same as Choi Dojunim's material. This is not really a controversy. It is simply a question of correcting things that have been misunderstood or misreported for many years.



    I would say, far from counters, there are MANY practitioners that simply do not have adequate technique to break out of simple grabs. Not a question of trying something else, but having seen people in Korea that are unable to break out of the grips of the senior instructors, I fully understand this.
     
  12. iron_ox

    iron_ox Jungki Kwan Midwest

    Master Joo came to the UK as a 5th dan.

    Asking around, he was certainly a student of Choi Dojunim, but I don't know much else other than that.

    As I said, Grandmaster Adams higher rank came from the Amateur Martial Association.
     
  13. Giovanni

    Giovanni Well-Known Member Supporter

    with all due respect kevin, you saying it's not controversial doesn't really change things. based on my conversations with hyun, hanpul is just a style of hapkido (this statement in itself if probably what you see as misreported or misunderstood). hyun thinks that his lineage traces back to choi, who he's met.

    really? simple one-handed wrist grab? wow. if that's the case, then fully agree that those people do not have adequate technique.
     
  14. Thomas

    Thomas Combat Hapkido/Taekwondo

    According to the GM Joo’s organization (World Koong Joong Hapkido Association), Mr. Adams started Hapkido as a white belt in the 1970s and tested for 1st dan in 1975. (http://www.hap-ki-do.co.uk/FredAdams.htm) .

    Would that be correct?



    Odd to have the same name with no connection... but then again, there are an awful lot of Hapkido associations with very similar names.

    When did GM Adams form the GBHA? I thought I read it was in 1971... but that would make GM Adams not yet a 1st dan.

    In 1981, GM Adams would have been a black belt since 1975 (so about 6 years)... would he have held 3rd dan, maybe?

    This group? http://www.amauk.co.uk/about-us/ama-about-us.html


    How can he hold higher Hapkido ranks if they were issued from any sort of Hapkido Association or anyone of higher rank? If there was no one of higher rank, who was he learning Hapkido from?

    In the past, you've mentioned how some people may have only earned a 1st dan from a reputable source should NOT be looked at as someone who can spread the art. It sounds like this man (no disrespect intended) is in a very similar position. And if 'the vast majority of Hapkido in the UK are students of Grandmaster Adams' and he only held a 1st dan in Hapkido, then how strong is their tie to the Hapkido source?

    Obviously your background has enabled you to be able to join the Jung Ki Kwan and relatively quickly be accepted as a 'Jung Ki Master".

    According to your bio, it sounds like you started around 1979 in Hapkido under Bob Miller (http://www.jungkifamily.com/sogorhistory.html) .
    Is it true that Mr. Miller was accused of being a con-man and had to leave England? The citation mentions that GM Adams commented that he [Miller] ‘didn’t understand the nuances of Hap Ki Do or have the proper certificates’). (http://enpsychopedia.org/index.php/Robert_Franklin_Miller)

    On your site, you mention that you had met GM Adams in 1980 and then were able to train under him in 1984. Who was GM Adams training under at that time? How much sustained training were you able to do under him?

    On http://www.jungkifamily.com/schoolhistory.html, it states that you have “been teaching since 1982”. It says you opened a school in 1992 (and closed it in 1993). It also says that you met GM Wollmershauser in 2002. Sometime after 2004, you became a “Jungki Master” under the Jungki Kwan (GM Lim Hyun-soo).

    I know that you travel yearly to Korea to train with GM Lim, but do you get sustained training under a certified senior instructor in the meantime?

    In essence, it sounds like much of your training history has been as a long distance student.

    Would you mind sharing your rank trail?
    When did you receive your dan grades and from whom?
     
  15. iron_ox

    iron_ox Jungki Kwan Midwest

    Again, I am simply reporting what his instructor says.

    He met Choi Dojunim? Wow.

    I see the same thing all the time as my dojang. It is really not that uncommon.
     
  16. Giovanni

    Giovanni Well-Known Member Supporter

    yeah, that's what i said too. it was like typical wild-eyed stuff. once i found out hyun had met choi, i rattled off like a million questions. he calmly answered a few, then it was just like, leave me alone. :)
     
  17. iron_ox

    iron_ox Jungki Kwan Midwest

    I don't remember what his first certificate said, but he trained many people along the way, and was injured at work (as I recall) and think that put off his ranking.

    Also, please note that most of the material from World Koong Joong Association is from people that were all students in Grandmaster Adam's organization, and for whatever reason have some issues with him now. Not my business frankly, but mush of what they report is not accurate based on the record.


    True, he was a student, Master Joo could not set up the organization, and never showed any interest in doing so. And he never has issued any uber rank, ever.



    Good question, if it is a matter of actual interest or just stomping your feet about Seo In Sun holding a first dan in Hapkido and issuing 9th dans?



    This seems to be the same organization, but I have had no contact with them for many years, and I think that the way organizations are controlled in the UK has changed somewhat.


    Nice try at misrepresenting what I have said. And you know it. Seo is a first dan, claiming a 10th dan in Hapkido. He is handing out 9th dans in Hapkido - he does not have the rank to issue that rank in Hapkido does he? Point blank. If you are happy with it, awesome, but don't equate Grandmaster Adams, or me for that matter with this activity - neither of us do that.


    Again, Fred teaches what he knows. He doesn't make people 9th dans after a weekend seminar...in fact, I have never known him to issue rank without long term training at all...

    I'm not making a claim to being a 10th dan, so, not really part of this thread discussion. I don't list all my training, including all the ranks I hold, including times as a resident student.

    And as much as I want to remain respectful to your fishing expedition, I would rather be a distance student of a legitimate teacher, than training under someone that clearly has no rank in the art they claim to be a 10th dan in...

    And it is this type of repeated questioning which continues to muddy the waters. What I say is available on other parts of the web. I am happy if others want to draw their own conclusions...but to try to infer other things is really inappropriate.
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2013
  18. iron_ox

    iron_ox Jungki Kwan Midwest

    Yeah, I'm curious just where that happened. Maybe in Seoul in the late 1960's at the large demos and seminars...

    Interesting.
     
  19. Giovanni

    Giovanni Well-Known Member Supporter

    no, i don't remember it like that. it's been awhile since i've talked to hyun. but i didn't get the impression that it was a seminar. kim was definitely also there. and it was more than once. i haven't stopped by the school in almost five years, but if i do, i'll ask.
     
  20. Thomas

    Thomas Combat Hapkido/Taekwondo

    I'm just asking questions here and doing my best to ask them in a respectful way. To answer your question, I hadn't thought about GM Seo In-sun's 3rd dan in this case, but I guess that would be a decent comparison.

    So, GM Adams would have been "about" a 3rd dan when he set up the GBHA and he would have been one of the most senior HKDin who would have been involved in issuing rank and coordinating curriculum. However, it seems taht he earned a 1st dan from a legitimate 5th dan, left him, and then continued to earn rank, promote Hapkido, and lead an Association without having anyone to study under or anyone 'in the lineage of Choi Dojunim' to continue his instruction.

    Now that you mention GM Seo In-sun, I have trouble seeing why you give GM Seo such a hard time, but GM Adams a "pass" here.




    Sorry - I'm not trying to misrepresent anything. GM Adams is claiming an 8th dan in Hapkido, even though, technically, he is a 1st dan. How many people has he promoted to dans higher than 1st? Did he promote you to a dan rank? Why would you accept it if he never held legitimate rank from anyone beyond 1st dan?

    Why don't your own own arguments hold here?



    What is the highest rank he promoted anyone to?


    I'm sorry Kevin, but you have been very vocal about the direct ties to Choi Dojunim and the importance of a solid connection to the source, and a lot of other very pointed topics. You present yourself as someone who teaches/studies 'Orthodox Hapkido' and as someone who is very concerned with the history of Hapkido.

    Asking someone's rank trail and time in training shouldn't be a big deal.

    What's yours?

    What ranks do you hold in Hapkido and who were they issued by (and when)?

    By the way, even more on topic, did you ever look up that information you said you were going to about the time the thread got split off? I haven't seen any replies on that topic...

    Well, say what you will.

    I asked about your rank trail in a very respectful manner.

    Right now, it sounds like you trained under Bob Miller for about a year (1979-1980). It seems that he was exposed as a 'fraud' (con man and lacking in HKD credentials). It then seems that you connected with GM Adams from about 1984-1990 or so as a mostly long distance student. His highest rank held from an actual Hapkido instructor was 1st dan. In 2002, you met GM Wollmershauser and in 2004 became part of Jung Ki Kwan and have since become a "Jung Ki Master". All told, that comes up to about 16 years of training or so, mostly long distance and much of it under (what you would define in any other case) a 1st dan.

    Without any other information, I have to assume that it is about accurate. Feel free to correct any wrong ideas I may have.

    As for me, I have trained under one instructor at a time and normally train at least twice a week (90 minute classes) under that instructor. In my earlier training years, I trained more hours/days but now it's a comfortable 2 or 3 times a week. I supplement it with seminars and private training. My 18 years of experience averages out to 2-3 classes per week, every week, for those 18 years. All of the instructors I have trained under have "their ducks in a row" when it comes to rank and I can trace them back pretty well. So, yeah, I think it's pretty solid.
     

Share This Page