I think so. It may sound a bit "highlander" but any need for people to also be, say, grandmaster is surely just an ego trip. You can be great but the head is the head. But maybe Korean culture is different than my experience in Japanese arts.
A 10th dan is still a student in ninjutsu. Often very much so! Not "grandmaster" at all. All ninjutsu grades are student grades. So the comparison is invalid. But I think you prob know that
Sounds like any number of traditional arts. Full transmission passed on to one person who in turn ensures the tradition is passed on to another. Or you may get others who receive everything within the school but they would not be the headmaster. If they chose they would start a seperate line, a break from the main line, frequently shown via a variation of name or other indication. To stick with your Ninjutsu example Gyokko Ryu Kosshi-Jutsu Tanemura-Ha or something that doesnt generate the negative views associated with the Takamatsuden; Ono-ha Ittō-ryū or Mizoguchi-ha Ittō-ryū.
It seems in the case of Hapkido I'm in the wrong. Maybe my view is clouded by the arts I've been exposed to, which generally haven't had one figurehead. Boxing for example doesn't have one head, it doesn't seem watered down to me though.
It may be the case in hapkido for all I know as they do seem to use the word "grandmaster" in a different way. I only commented because you used ninjutsu as a comparison which didn't seem valid.
I know next to nothing about Hapkido but with traditional Japanese arts you are essentially dealing with living antiques. It's not only a case of ensuring the tradition is maintained as instructed but also that the heads of these traditions basically own them. There isn't really an onus in boxing to maintain certain standards regardless of the current era.
Yep. Still seems to be generating interest though! Well.... in this case, I think we have to look at the terms too. In Korean, they have a few different ones. In the case of "Doju", I see that more as "founder" and feel there really only should be one (Choi Yong Sool Dojunim). There have been other very senior people with titles like Kuksa(nim), e.g. GM Myung Jae Nam... which I think was very much deserved. The problem with the term "grandmaster" is that people look at it in different ways. I tend to see it very simply - masters teach students and grandmasters teach masters. If you stay within the system long enough to raise students from white belt to black belt to 'master', you are on your way to becoming a grandmaster. Rank-wise, I usually see 4th or 5th dan up as 'master' and 8th-9th dan as 'grandmaster'.
Hapkido (in general) is a little different in rank structure. In general (this varies by federation/group), you usually have to be 4th dan to promote others up to 1st dan black belt. Some groups will consider 4th dan (or 5th dan) as a 'master instructor', i.e. someone who has learned the system to the point where they can pass it on to others. They still need training, instruction and 'coaching' in the art. For some groups, there is a whole set of test requirements up through 6th or 7th dan. Ranks past 6th or 7th dan are more based on contributions to the art than on 'just' proficiency in the skills of the art. Some groups keep a very long time in grade in place for these and some may promote a bit quicker, depending on contributions. Edit - added a thought I don't think the rank system in Hapkido really compares to Ninjutsu very well (from what I see on forums) - for the most part, Hapkido generally has a specific curriculum ties to each rank and a fairly general "time in grade" system. Because of that, when you hear someone's rank, you have a pretty quick idea of how long they've been in the system and what they should know in general - that's why 'red flags' go up easily when something is not in order. For example, as a 4th dan in (Combat Hapkido), most people in KMA would quickly be able to estimate that it took me 3-5 years for 1st dan, then 1-2 for 2nd, 2-3 for 3rd, and 3-4 years for 4th... so they could guess that I've been training in the art for at least 9 years and maybe as many as 14+ to be at my rank and they would have a pretty good idea of what I should know and be able to do in the art (different kwans organize the curriculum differently, but the parts are still mostly the same). If I was claiming a 4th dan but had only been training for 4 or 5 years, that'd be an immediate 'red flag'. (Actually I've been in Hapkido for about 18 years - I am testing for 5th dan next month) Red flags for 9th dan come even easier, just by "time in grade", you'd think a person would have at least (3+1+2+3+4+5+6+7+8= ) about 39 years in the system. Some groups even establish a minimum age for each rank as well. That's why when I hear of Ninjutsu 10th dans or even 15th dans who have maybe even half of that time in, it raises 'red flags' for me... even though I really shouldn't be comparing apples and oranges.
On another thread, Kevin Sogor posted the 4 people that Choi Dojunim had promoted to 9th dan, I've added some information from Dr. Kimm's book. While digging through, it listed two people who had been offered "10th dan" rank from Choi Dojunim... The four 9th dans of Choi Dojunim are: Chang Chin Il - Current Dojunim - According to Kimm's History of Korea and Hapkido, he received this in 1985, shortly before Choi Dojunim passed away. (p.391) It mentions that he holds a 9th dan in Taekwondo and had done private Hapkido lessons with Choi Dojunim. It doesn't specifically list him as holding a 9th dan in Hapkido, nut I trust Kevin's sources (pp.391-393) Lim Hyun Soo - Jungki Kwan According to Kimm's History of Korea and Hapkido, Im Hyun Soo joined Choi Dojunim's school in 1965 and left for a bit to help Kim Young Jae open a school, returning to Choi Dojunim in 1972 to train directly under him. Choi Dojunim spent most of his time at Im Hyun Soo's school until 1984 (stroke). Choi Dojunim promoted him to 9th dan. (pp.333-334) Kim Yun Sang - Yong Sul Kwan (Designated "Korean Dojunim" By Choi Dojunim's Daughter in Law) Lee Yong Soo - Kim Yun Sang's training partner - now deceased According to Kimm's History of Korea and Hapkido,Kim Yung Sang and Lee Yong Soo trained with Choi Dojunim from about 1973-1985 by visiting for various periods of time. In 1981 they were both offered the title of "Doju". They refused. In 1983 they were offered 9th dans and refused. In 1984 they were promoted to 9th dan. In 1985, they were offered 10th dan - they refused. In 1985, Choi Dojunim passed away. GM Kim Yun Sang was offered the "Doju" ship from Choi Dojunim's daughter-in-law in 2002 and accepted. (p.399) (Side note - I would question what authority she would have to make this promotion - as far as I recall, she had no standing in Hapkido) According to Kimm's History of Korea and Hapkido, Choi Dojunim also offered the title of "Doju" to Kim Jung Soo, Kim Jong Yoon, Yu Byung Don, and Hong Seung Gil, each of whom refused. (p.391)
According to the November 2013 issue of Taekwondo Times (p.48), GM Ji Han-jae promoted Merrill Jung, Jurg Ziegler, and Ken MacKenzie to 10th Dan in June of 2010. The article states that in 2013, he will promote Massan Ghorbani (Iran/Ireland), Geoff Booth (Australia), and In Wan Kim (Korea/USA) to 10th dan.
I find interesting this whole thing that you can only be promoted by a superior. since it means that the founder cannot call himself anything... he has no "superior".. and if he has no superior, how can he be a first second ninth of 25th dan?
I heard that last weekend Ji Han-jae has promoted three more people to 10th dan. Their names: Massan Ghorbani (Ireland) Geof Booth (Australia) Kim In-wan (Florida, U.S.) Which brings the total now to six persons with a 10th dan in Sinmoo Hapkido. The article about Sinmoo Hapkido over on wikipedia also lists all 9th dans
I only take the combat hapkido, which I am trying to get the money together to get back into it actually. Since my son was born I now find myself out about 3 or 4 months of working on it. Point being is my instructor is 4th dan and 1 other is 3rd. I guess Pelligrenni himself would have to test you to go any higher, but is it even needed? I am guessing this is only in traditional hapkido though so sorry that i'm not adding anything to the thread lol.
No 10th dans in Combat Hapkido so far. In Combat Hapkido, GM Pellegrini holds a 9th dan (promoted by GM In Sun Seo, 10th dan) and he has promoted people up to 7th dan so far. Instructors can usually test up to one dan level under, so only GM P would be able to promote more 7th dans or an 8th dan (none as of yet in the system). My instructor is 6th dan in CHKD and I hold a 5th dan in CHKD - there is a formal curriculum for ranks up to 6th dan as well as all of the additional options.
Don't generalize Genbukan comes with a very extensive and strict curriculum for every kyuu and dan grade, along with time-in-grade and other requirements. In Genbukan, there are only a handful 8 dans, after a lifetime of study and living in Japan. In Bujinkan, rank is essentially meaningless from a standards point of view. In Jinenkan, 5th is the highest and there aren't that many.
I do admit that I was generalizing and basing that on the common thread topics in the Ninja forum (which would more likely be Bujinkan, I guess). That said, I think if you want to dig into this line of thought, you should go back to about post#60 when it first came up and follow the line of thought attached to that. I didn't start the reference to Ninjas and they probably have no real relevance to this thread.
Every art is different and each have different goals in mind for each rank level. Modern Korean arts usually have a 9 gup system and 9 dan system. About 3 years the Founder of Sinmoo Ji Han Jae created 10th Dans to be regional directors in different parts of the world. These ranks were not about skill but more administration. The Sinmoo system requires a person to reach 6th to be recognized as a Master. 4th Dan is an instructor. Normally higher ranks are awarded by our Master Ji Han Jae based on his own personal assessment of each person on an individual basis. There are no cookie cutter rules for these ranks only a master's wise judgement of that person. The Official Sinmoo curriculum however goes to 4th dan. After that people are expected to refine all those skills and even develop their own concepts based on their own research and experience. There is no end to Sinmoo, it is impossible to reach perfection of all our skills on all possible levels, it is just a long journey. Sinmoo Stuart Rosenberg
