Haidong Gumdo Practicality?

Discussion in 'Weapons' started by Bgajdor1, Sep 26, 2012.

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  1. Bgajdor1

    Bgajdor1 Valued Member

    Hello all,

    I've recently decided to pick up some "traditional" sword training in addition to taekwondo.

    I have a choice between an Aikido and Haidong Gumdo school. The Aikido school teaches a little Kenjutsu, and the instructor is a bit ill-tempered. However, the Haidong Gumdo teacher is nice and appropriate.

    My only gripe is all of the negativity I've heard surrounding Haidong Gumdo. I realize it is a modern martial art and that koreans never engaged the battlefield against multiple opponents with their katanas. I'm aware of the fabricated history and lineage surrounding Haidong Gumdo. But I'm more interested in this art to learn proper cutting form and technique. Will Haidong Gumdo at least teach cutting technique and precision in form and movement the way that Kenjutsu does? Or does it fall short on these accounts as well.

    I'm most interested in learning how to cut precisely and accurately similar to the way Iaidokas do. Not in sparring or Kendo competitions. Let me know what you guys think. Thanks again,

    ~ Ben
     
  2. Kave

    Kave Lunatic

    If you don't like the Aikido school and want to train with swords then take Haidong Gumdo. Does it really matter how effective your sword ability is? I doubt you are training swordwork with the intention of ever actually using it to kill someone, so do whatever art you most enjoy. Personally I think Kenjutsu is more aesthetically pleasing, but I wouldn't recommend training with an instructor you don't like
     
  3. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    I think Kave is right. HDGD was never really much more than somebody's grab for recognition that blew-up in their face. The original idea was made-up by a fella who worked with a Korean monk to develope a sword art as a national institution. In a way it was a bit like the Post-WWII people trying to retrofit Korean culture with a "Martial Heritage". Sad thing was that Korea HAD a Martial Heritage but noone wanted to take the time to really learn the material. Guess it made more sense to just make stuff up, huh?

    If you want to learn how to use the Korean swords (plural) there are a few---very few--- people who practice authentic Korean sword material. Probably the best known right now are the KIMA people over outside of Amsterdam. Dr. CHOI Bok Kyu and his teacher are arguably the best authorities on Korean sword tradition. Dr. Choi's teacher has written five books on authentic Korean Martial traditions. Of course, its all in Korean Han-Gul. As for me...well, I lucked onto my own teacher....pure luck. FWIW.

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
     
  4. Bgajdor1

    Bgajdor1 Valued Member

    Thanks Bruce. I'm well aware of the scandals surrounding Haidong Gumdo. I just wanted to know if the cuts and attacks within the style are at least proper when compared to Iaido or Kenjutsu. I've heard some of the spinning attacks aren't practical. But I wonder if the basics would prove useful for transferring over to a "real" Iaido school in the future. Thank you,

    ~ Ben
     
  5. Chris Parker

    Chris Parker Valued Member

    From seeing a fair bit of "Korean" swordsmanship, I'd say no. Your best bet is to look for an Iai school, really. If you let us know where you are, there's a good chance someone here might know of a school somewhat local to you.
     
  6. Bgajdor1

    Bgajdor1 Valued Member

    Thanks Chris. I'm located in Binghamton, NY. Southern Tier New York Really. About an hour from Ithaca. I'd be willing to drive 30 minutes, but an hour is pushing it a bit.

    ~ Ben
     
  7. Chris Parker

    Chris Parker Valued Member

    Ah, really....? The location of Ithaca rang a little bell in my head... Depending on exactly what you're after, there is a group known as Finger Lakes Koryu, who offer instruction under the guidance of Phil Relnick Sensei in Shinto Muso Ryu Jodo (four foot staff against sword) and Tenshinsho Den Katori Shinto Ryu, a school with a large focus, centering around the use of the sword, including Iaijutsu (as well as a range of other methods). They can be contacted from this page: https://sites.google.com/site/fingerlakeskoryu/ Personally, I'd drive a lot further than an hour for that...
     
  8. laurita

    laurita New Member

    Haidong Gumdo is a great style of swordsmanship whose techniques are effective.

    What most peoples opinions come down to is country of origin the style comes from.. Japan or Korea. The Japanese stylists claim all Japanese styles are pure and Korean styles are copies.

    But if you look at China, Japan and Korea, Korea is in the middle between Japan and China with Japan being on the bottom. Looking at it logically, information would flow down from China through Korea to Japan. With that aside Haidong Gumdo is a great Martial Art tat offers its students a very step by step approach to learning the sword.

    Check out this site www.HaedongKumdoBlackBelt.com
     
  9. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    How do you know?
    Looking at the stuff done at demonstrations on youtube the evidence points to the opposite.

    The Bear.
     
  10. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    Bloody hell the video in that link is awful!

    Yes tameshigiri is easy if you wind up and massively over cut but that's not the point of doing it, same goes for the paired work. Most the time over cutting like that is inviting the over guy to chop you in two.

    Also although it may be different for KSA the angle of the cuts on the target looked a little off, problem with tenouchi perhaps?

    The videos I've seen of Bruce were far better and I didn't like them but at least they seemed to have some logic to them.
     
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2012
  11. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    It isn't even swordsmanship. It's just posing with swords. Total nonsense. The only thing it's going to teach is how to get yourself injured.

    The Bear.
     
  12. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    I mean no offense to anyone who is enamoured of Korean sword, but I think that folks need to take a page from the TAEKWONDO legacy. What I mean is that, in the case of TAEKWONDO, General CHOI Hong Hi had a very specific agenda in mind when he pulled TKD together. One part was Physical Culture and Conditioning. Another aspect was engendering Koreans with a sense of Nationalistic fervor (or a Martial flavor). About the last thing on the list was using TKD as a form of Combat or S-D. I mention this because, very much like the SHOTOKAN from with much of TKD was derived, TKD was a former Combat art (see: To-De) that was converted into a form of Physical Education. I think we see this very same pattern in the production of HDGD.

    Now back to KUM BUP.

    The foundation material of GEUM BEOP is sound swordwork tracing its origins back to the 8th or 9th Century (see: "WU BEI SHI"; MAO Yuan-I) so thats all good stuff and intended to be material for instructing in the use of the sword as a weapon. The only fly in the ointment is that the military item used by the Korean army was historically the single-handed sabre or TO. Unfortunately, with the re-adoption of the two-handed sabre by the Japanese Military in the 1930-s, and the introduction of KENDO to Korea in 1904, Korean nationals were exposed to the KATANA as CQ weapon. The Japanese CQ applications (see: TOYAMA-RYU) rapidly eclipsed use of the single-handed sabre.

    Soooooo.....what does this have to do with the efficacy of HAE DONG KUMDO?

    Well....

    The foundations of the practice are sound fighting material but
    a.) Those foundations have been corrupted by the introduction of Japanese materials and methods associated with the two-handed sabre and
    b.) the introduction of acrobatic movements and arcane practices (see: KI CHEON) that have little practical application in combat or CQ events. As a result of these two factors what one sees in HAE DONG KUMDO is much closer to some sort of acrobatic "toyama-ryu rip-off" than a sound representation of original Korean sword. There is also the use of the Korean HAN-GUL characters to practice cuts which I view as a kind of rip-off of NAKAMURA Taisoburo's use of Chinese characters (see: Ejii Happo) for teaching NAKAMURA-RYU BATTO-JUTSU sword strokes.

    In HWA RANG GEUM BEOP we try to address these issues in two ways. One is the use of "validation cutting" (K. BEGI) which requires that each method and/or technique be able to reduce a variety of materials. The second method for addressing efficacy is the use of one-man Forms (K: HYUNG) and two-man encounters (K. KUN). There has been some discussion, over the years, of using bamboo swords (K: JUK-TO) for a sort of free-sparring, though IMHO such activities are more for novelty and would probably corrupt more than enhance sound swordsmanship. FWIW.

    Best Wishes,
    Bruce
     
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2012
  13. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    Bruce almost none of that makes any sense.

    The Bear.
     
  14. Bgajdor1

    Bgajdor1 Valued Member

    Taekwondo was created by General Chong Choi Hi for uniting Korea on some level, but it was also taught to the Korean military. The form of Taekwondo taught to the Korean military was more self-defense oriented and similar to the original form of TKD Gen. Chong Choi Hi created, ITF Taekwondo. So I wouldn't be too quick to dismiss the practicality of ITF Taekwondo as a martial art or self-defense system, as long as it's taught more traditionally.

    Thanks for the informative posts about Haidong Gumdo, I wanted to find out if the tameshigiri (cutting) was at least effective. I do notice they overextend, but thought the form for the cuts might be similar to Iaijutsu or Kenjutsu.

    The problem with driving over an hour for good instruction comes down to a conflict of martial arts. I practice Taekwondo 2-3 times a week, and have to drive an hour for Taekwondo instruction. There are taekwondo schools in Binghamton, but they're more McDojo oriented. I found a good taekwondo school about an hour away, and I drive there 2-3 times per week. If I travel to iaijutsu that is an hour away, that'll be too much money in gas and too much wear and tear on the car, not to mention the pain of driving an hour and back 5 days every week. That's why I was looking for something closer. Thanks for the advice so far though. I'm contacting fingerlakeskoryu to find out if they have anyone situated closer to Binghamton.
     
  15. laurita

    laurita New Member

    @ Polar Bear and Dean Winchester...What was bloody awful about the cutting or the material on that link. Would you mind sharing some video of you cutting and what you would consider great cutting or technique.

    Haidong Gumdo has three parts to it, forms, cutting and fighting techniques. How can any of us say what is practical and effective as NONE of us have ever fought with real swords in a battle.
     
  16. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    I pointed out some problems in my previous post obviously decent cutting and movement would be that which doesn't exhibit some of the traits shown in that clip.


    I don't have any clips of me cutting or training, it's not something we tend to do.
     
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2012
  17. laurita

    laurita New Member

    @Dean Winchester, all the cuts on that video were 45 degree angle cuts which is the standard angle for cuts. Sometimes the angle will change a little.

    That clip combined forms training, cutting and some partner demonstration techniques. As with all forms there will be some transitions that to someone who doesn't understand the movements will seem like fluff or unnecessary. The same holds true for all styles of martial arts that have forms like iaijutsu, iaido, kenjutsu, Karate, Kung Fu or Tae Kwon Do.

    In my opinion Japanese swordsmanship styles contain a lot of rituals that have nothing to do with sword fighting but it is a part of the martial art aspect that we all enjoy and it has moves that are not realistic i.e. seated techniques.

    When someone isn't willing to show their skills but are willing to criticize others it throws up a red flag to me.
     
  18. Simon

    Simon Administrator Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    laurita, is it your class/school/instructor in the video?
     
  19. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    For one there are the various manuals or documents left by past masters and headmasters which pass in various aspects and important information about the techniques and of course the oral traditions passed on from one generation to the next.

    Then there are things like tameshigiri which help us gauge our technique and how it may improve. That of course is focused on the development of an individual's technical ability as opposed to what may or may not have worked in a combative situation.

    Finally there are many drills or methods of training which enable to see where our approach may fail these drills often form part of a cohesive whole within a system giving a logical progression for the student to follow, as opposed to things being cherry picked from here and there.

    No we aren't going to go down the pub and test our metal but for those of us training in certain traditions or those trying to reconstruct systems then we have a great deal to use.

    However at the end of the day it can be easy enough to spot when someone is cutting off balance or doing a technique that is more flash than function.
     
  20. laurita

    laurita New Member

    @Simon, its me on the video.
     
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