Haedong or Kumdo?

Discussion in 'Weapons' started by Zatoichi1, Dec 25, 2010.

  1. OwlMAtt

    OwlMAtt Armed and Scrupulous

    To be fair, the aikido/hapkido mistake is an easy one to make in languages that do not use phoenetic spelling.
  2. rino1901

    rino1901 Valued Member

    Im sorry I dont get what your saying.

    I am interested in the names of these dvd's and book.
    I am not interested in your name.

    If these dvd's do exist I doubt that the korean goverment would have made them. Why would a goverment do something like that?!

    If they do exist I would say japan made them. If so, I would not take them as a true. Because there not korean, there from another country saying something damning about another.

    I know 1 Aikido group lost there right to certify. I do not know the name. Not all Aikido groups have lost the right.
  3. Mitch

    Mitch Lord Mitch of MAP Admin

    Is TKD multiple HRD schools coming together or Shotokan interpreted for Korean tastes? I can see lots of evidence for the latter, I'd love to see any evidence for the former?

    Is there a record of HRD having a continued existence from Silla through the occupation and into post-occupation Korea?

  4. rino1901

    rino1901 Valued Member


    I believe the history says they date back to silla and is on cave paintings dating back to that time. I dont believe the kkw acknowledge or admit any tjing is from japan and there official history is the hrd school tried banding together.

    The ITF tkd i believe say they took alot from karate. General choi is the founder.

    Thank you,


    Sent from Galaxy Tab
  5. Mitch

    Mitch Lord Mitch of MAP Admin

    I believe the history written by Korean nationalists may say so, but as the WTF arise out of the ITF after Gen Choi falls out with the Korean Dictatorship, WTF cannot claim any lineage prior to ITF.

    ITF in turn clearly comes from Shotokan. Though Gen Choi may never have said so, that was his background, the Ch'ang Hon forms are clearly the Heian Kata re-arranged, and the early principles of ITF TKD (pre sine-wave) are also obviously Shotokan based.

    So Shotokan becomes ITF TKD becomes WTF TKD and both forms then become Koreanised over time in their own ways, surely?

    Other than some paintings of men with their legs in the air I don't think there's anything credible that makes TKD older than circa 1955 or descended from anything other than Shotokan?

    Again, unless anyone can provide evidence to the contrary?

  6. rino1901

    rino1901 Valued Member

    I am not a historian, However part of my undergrad course will be to study the history of most or all martial arts.

    Im not saying the cave paintings are TKD surely, now them being the predicesor of tkd, hrd yes.

    Im not sure, Maybe the forms idea is karate I dont know.

    How ever this is a kumdo thread so i will end my comments here also because of antile the thread was derailed! if he did this on Bullshido,net he would recieve an award. I am sure he kills threads daily.
  7. klaasb

    klaasb ....

    part of your undergrad course is to study the history of most or all martial arts ....???? :rolleyes:
    Wow ....
  8. Mitch

    Mitch Lord Mitch of MAP Admin

    A good point. :)

  9. rino1901

    rino1901 Valued Member

    In am getting an undergrad degree in martial science. I will also attend the Phd program.
    So they you send an application, your rank must be 6th or above and 20+ yrs of teaching or as a blackbelt. and you do history, kinisiology and such courses. basicaly what any martial arts degree requires.
  10. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    Where are you doing this?
  11. ScottUK

    ScottUK More human than human...

    I think this is excellent news, and will benefit us all.

    What source material will you be using?
  12. rino1901

    rino1901 Valued Member

    Its through University San Diego. Online course.

    I am not in the program, I am looking at a few schools This one I mentioned is easiest, the one I want has an amazing course and i reall really want to attend that course but they wont be accredited until next yr. so pell grant and Gi bill wont cover it. even though its only 65 a class. when accredited it will be ov 2-300 a credit
  13. ScottUK

    ScottUK More human than human...

    ...but what source material will you be using to research from?
  14. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    Unfortunately, Mitch, you are hitting the nail pretty much on the head.

    I have studied on exactly this very question for quite some time, and though I didn't like the information that revealed itself, as a KMA person I feel obligated to give such history its due.

    We know that the Korean government started sending selected Koreans to Japan to learn the Japanese approach to absorbing Western technology and thought as early as 1880 when Korea sent the KIM Koeng-Jip mission to Japan on the heels of the Kangwha Treaty in 1876. Though you would be hard-pressed to find them, over the next 60 years or so there were large numbers of Koreans who went to Japan to be educated.

    Following FUNAKOSHI Gichin's move to Japan in 1921, a number of colleges developed Karate programs after the "Shotokan" model. For instance, as early as 1926, you have CHUNG DO KWANS' founder, Lee Won Kuk, moving to Japan when he was 19 years old. While in Japan he first attended high school and then entered the law school of Chuo University. Then he joined Japan 's Karate-do headquarters, the "Song Do Kwan" (Shotokan) where he trained under ---who else---Funakoshi Sensei then later under Song Moo Kwan's founder, RO Byung Jick.

    Later, in 1930, you have TOYAMA Kanken moving from Taiwan (Formosa at the time) to mainland Japan and on 20 March 1930 he opened his first dojo in Tokyo . He called his dojo Shu Do Kan, meaning "The Hall for the Study of the Way" (in this case the karate-way). Toyama Sensei did not claim to originate a new style, system or school of thought, nor did he combine the different styles he had learned. Those who studied under him basically learned basically Itosu's Shorin Ryu and the related Ch'uan fa. Which is why there is so much KATA overlap between SHOTOKAN and Toyama's SHUDOKAN.

    When these Koreans went back home they continued to train in Karate and this was abetted by the adoption of both Karate and Kendo by the Korean school system just prior to WW II. But heres where the problem comes in.

    The dirty little secret that the Korean's DON'T want to talk about is that a significant portion resisted Japanese influence BUT A SIGNIFICANT PORTION OF KOREAN CULTURE DID NOT!! After WWII the Pro-Administration was retained by the Western Occupation in order to stablize Korea against Communist incursions. The West needed a toe-hold on the Asian continent at the time which was a huge part of the agreement between Russia (USSR) and the US to split the Korean peninsula (Sept 8, 1945). What this meant for the KMA was that pro-Japanese sympathizers remained in control of educational and cultural policy under the Rhee government allowing for the survival of, and preferential treatment for, Japanese practices albeit under Korean nomenclature. Now------just try and find any Koreans who will own this. Fact is that Korea continues to be a country at war with itself because half the population backed the Japanese and they lost the war. The Japanese dream (IE. "Japanese proclaim Co-Prosperity Sphere - 1938") was suppose to be a ticket "up-and-out" for a huge portion of the Korean under-society and that all went south when the Japanese lost the war.

    What remains behind is the influence of Japanese tradtiions on the venerable Korfean practices that were eclipesed and then surplanted. Koreans have been trying to put a decent spin on this crap ever since. FWIW.

    Best Wishes,

    Last edited: Apr 6, 2011
  15. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    Do you have any links?
  16. rino1901

    rino1901 Valued Member

  17. ScottUK

    ScottUK More human than human...

    I think a mod should split this from the original thread. Worthy of discussion but we shouldn't derail the HDGD lunacy.
  18. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member


    Don't know about anyone else but my alarm bells are going off.

    I'd hate to see someone get misled over a dodgy course.
  19. ScottUK

    ScottUK More human than human...

    Nothing dodgy about the course - if you don't mind pointless non-accredited courses that will teach you limited information of zero use - and recognised by no-one.
  20. rino1901

    rino1901 Valued Member

    Its not accredited today!

    However next your the 2 yr. probationary wait to be accredited by the U.S. will be up! and it will be accredited.

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