Haedong or Kumdo?

Discussion in 'Weapons' started by Zatoichi1, Dec 25, 2010.

  1. OwlMAtt

    OwlMAtt Armed and Scrupulous

    I am a little more sympathetic to the Koreans. Teaching Japanese culture was outlawed in Korea after WWII in attempt to regain Korea's national identity, which had been abusively suppressed by the Japanese during the occupation. So these nationalistic histories were necessary for the teaching of modern martial arts to even be legal in Korea. The trouble is that, now that Korea is beyond that (at least legally), the government has discovered the political and diplomatic usefulness of these lies and continued to cling to them.
     
  2. antilie

    antilie Valued Member

    Kumudo is a copy of Kendo.
    And Korea aims at kumudo being adopted as Olympics official competition. In other words kumudo aims at the sports.

    2003.
    Kumudo declared that Korea Kumudo became the Korean national sport.
    The purpose is that Kumudo is adopted as a medal sport of the Olympics.

    It was to assume it Korea as a start of that purpose in the origin of Kendo. Korea advertised it to the nation as a historical fact.

    And Korea kumudo prohibited Japanese-style clothes of then.
    In other words, until this time, the Korean understood that Korea Kumudo was a copy of Japanese Kendo.

    Judo, kendo, Karate, aikido are Japanese martial arts known to the world.
    However, the other martial arts except Judo refused it to be adopted in Olympics item.

    Because the Olympics are festivals of sports. Japan thinks Budo to be not be sports.
    Japan thinks that it "is to lose essence of Budo that Budo is adopted as sports by OLYMPIC".
    In association of Japanese Judo, there is the person regretting that judo is adopted in Olympics item.

    The Korean regards such a Japanese way of thinking as "the weak".


    A Korean likes authority and honor.

    Therefore they spend money if they can buy it for money.
    And they do anything to satisfy their vanity.

    2002WC.
    2010
    The sudden disqualification of the Taiwan taekwondo player by the Asian Games.

    When the Taiwan team which Korea invited almost won the championship at the tournament in a friendship Little League meet in Korea, the Korea sponsor demanded return home from them.
    "This is a meeting for Koreans"(The Korean of net got angry at this for a sponsor, too)
     
  3. antilie

    antilie Valued Member

    Korea is not the greatest enemy for Japan.
    In other words, they are annoying neighbors.

    They are viewpoints of a strong person than the ancient times, and it is to be the enemy of the weak.

    In Korea, Hwarang is done hero worship of by a Korean.
    However, in Korea, the Korean considered in the drama of a magnificent soldier from the sentence of only the one in historical materials like the Hwarang video which I showed.

    And it is recognized as a Korean history fact by them.

    The description that was a Korean special soldier group Hwarang of Korea there is it nowhere.
    There is the record that a Korean commandeering soldier (a lot, farmer) had two people who were Hwarang.

    There are the proud words that a Korean uses in a history dispute.

    The evidence does not tell all.
    Therefore the presentation of the evidence is meaningless for the proof of the fidelity.
    Therefore I am fidelity.

    This is the words that the Chinese criminal uses.
     
  4. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    Oh, absolutely agree! My own sympathies have always been far-and-away with the people of Korea rather than their government or agencies. The little-appreciated history of Korea is one of tribal rather than national processes with the influence of clans being demonstrated right up to the death/murder of Queen Min by Japanese agents in 1904. Fact is that the current administration up in North Korea is simply an extension of this same tribal thinking into the 21st Century. But while all of this is going on there are traditions and practices that---IMHO--- ought to be getting a far greater amount of attention. For instance, both the metalurgy and ceramics of past generations were of extremely high quality and there are currently individuals working to revive these ancient traditions. Similarly, ----speaking of MA--- there are the KUK SOOL people who seem to be seeking to establish a national MA practice while there is already the SIB PAL KI people who still practice traditions from the Choseon Period.

    As far as publicizing accurate history, my own thought is that if the Korean government would ever decide to publish the "Veritable Record of the Yi" I think we would get a much more accurate idea of how life really was, from the viewpoint of the Korean court, anyhow. FWIW.

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
     
  5. Hyeongsa

    Hyeongsa The Duelist

    SCOTT: I like Haedong Gumdo do to its flair and demo capablities. I also like their uniforms. LMAO However, I have met a few of these masters and these men are fast and precise with their swords. However, I do appreciate other peoples opinions and I would love to see a demo of what you call real sword skill. I am not being confrontational but I am curious on what would impress you.
     
  6. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    Precise in what way?

    I've just put Haedong Gumdo in YouTube and got a load of rubbish back, could you please post something you consider is good Haedong Gumdo?

    I know YouTube is hardly representative of an art as a whole but maybe you know of some good clips?
     
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2011
  7. Hyeongsa

    Hyeongsa The Duelist

    Sure! What exactly are you interested in when it comes to sword arts? Sparring, cutting skills, or forms?
     
  8. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    The art as a whole.

    In a system which has combative intent those things should not be separate they should form a cohesive system of study.

    Show me good Haedong Gumdo and if you don't mind say why the clips you choose are good.
     
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2011
  9. antilie

    antilie Valued Member

    Is it sword skill?

    Kumudo is a problem before skill.

    There are the words called Kendo from the Edo era.
    However, a meaning is different from current kendo in it.
    It is kenjutu.
    And it is wrong with kendo of the beginning in the 20th century.
    There was the skill that swung a foot in old kendo.

    kumudo is a copy of kendo.
    (When I watched a video of kumudo for the first time, I felt that kumudo was tate.)

    However, and I insisted that kumudo was a thing of Korea ancient times and insisted on kumudo when it was the origin of kendo.

    The rule of kendo is different from Kumudo.
    However, kumudo participates in an international meeting of kendo.
    There was not kumudo on the scale that could hold an international meeting.

    Association of kendo said to association of kumudo.
    If "kumudo is Korea original martial arts, hold a tournament only for kumudo"

    I seem to have argued that Korea was racial discrimination in it. (what!) )?

    Association of kendo seems to have accepted participation of kumudo in the Kendo rule at first.

    A Korean likes honor and authority.

    kumudo aims at the regular item of the Olympics as sports.
    It is to satisfy Korean vanity.
    They believe that it improves Korean international evaluation that kumudo is adopted in Olympics item.

    I participate in a Korean net bulletin board.
    The words that Koreans use well.
    "The taekwondo is the world's best martial arts chosen by OLYMPIC". "

    "The taekwondo is not garbage such as karate"


    The people must understand it.

    kumudo is a copy of kendo in the 20th century.
    (I mix tate of the movie with it)

    kumudo aims at the authority as sports.

    The Korean history forgery is a Korean national policy.

    And to press-agent it worldwide;, in Korea government, group cyberterrorism (secure national budget for VANK).)
    (They let an American server fall by email terrorism last year)

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q4SHWXQBVL4&feature=related"]YouTube - Kendo in High Speed Camera(Slow Motion)[/ame]

    A misjudgment?
    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ETO_rig7g4&feature=related"]YouTube - SBS Kumdo Tournament[/ame]

    HDGD is a mere performance.
    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dRx_EAJrC9U&feature=related"]YouTube - HDGD World Championship 2008 (Part 9)[/ame]
     
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2011
  10. Hyeongsa

    Hyeongsa The Duelist

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LowYYaphkxc"]YouTube - Haidong Gumdo Demonstration WM 2002[/ame]

    Reasons I like this demonstration:
    Good hand eye coordination and cutting skills with the apple demonstration.
    Good power control with the candle extinguishing
    Good sparring sessions (though somewhat accrobatic, but hell, its a demo)
    Very nice traditional forms/dances showing both concious control of the sword.
    Control over the cutting exercises.

    In the end, a sword can be swung only so many ways and test cuts determine how well you have control over the angle of the sword. If the cut is jagged, you don't have control. If it is smooth...you get the point.

    What do you not like about the demo?
     
  11. antilie

    antilie Valued Member

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uXRqmoFhcuE&feature=related"]YouTube - Isao Machii 2[/ame]

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0SLB5KHOM6M&feature=related"]YouTube - 3・18 å¹³æˆã®ä¾[/ame]
     
  12. Hyeongsa

    Hyeongsa The Duelist

    Isao Machii Sensei is....superhuman. LOL I am a big fan of his. However, can he spar? Can he fight? All questions that can be asked of anyone from Haidong Gumdo, Iaido, etc.
     
  13. antilie

    antilie Valued Member

    Why does not haedongumudo beat a partner?

    It is the Edo era that a protective gear of kendo developed. Before it, the trainee beat a partner in a wooden sword made with an oak.
    Therefore Shinai and a protective gear were devised for their security because the students whom I broke in an exercise increased.


    Japanese Iai is nothing in kendo.
    The basic training is the same as kendo.
     
  14. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    Edit: Double post due to MAP going crazy.
     
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2011
  15. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    Virtually all of them over cut during the test cutting drills, leaving themselves off balance and would be open to a counter from an opponent, I wouldn't say the demonstrated controll at all. Control would mean they are balanced and don't need to wind it up so much.

    Now before you go "but the opponent would be dead" that's assuming they cut him and don't miss, get parried or his mates don't jump in.

    You should always be in a position to move, cut again and maintain control of your centre, they were not.

    Can't see the point of the apple thing. What combative purpose does it serve?

    The sparring wasn't sparring. It was somewhere between movie choreography and an attempt at bad kendo. Again they showed bad habits from a combative point of view i.e overcutting.

    The power generation was poor due to their being little in the way of overall body usage, basically they were all arms.*

    This you'll find is one reason for the over cutting, if they'd engage the lower body more there be less need for them to be using the weapon like a baseball bat.

    As for the dance well it's a dance. It may have value from a cultural point of view, nothing wrong there, but other than that where does it relate to the art?

    The candle trick was just that a parlour trick other than for entertainment I don't see the point. Oh and I used to be able to do it when I was in my teens, nothing too skillfull about it.

    Overall it was rather poor and came across as having the purpose of entertaining the public rather than showing some workable sword skills.

    They showed habits that would get them smacked around by any half decent swordsman.
     
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2011
  16. klaasb

    klaasb ....

    Have to agree with Dean here. KMA seem to be much about show and doing demonstrations these days and not much about decent swordsmanship.
    Cutting jipdan (straw) isn't that difficult and can be taught to just about anyone in about one afternoon. And we all know that the fancier cuts also require special swords (samguk geom, something a triangular blade).
    Still, overall I like the dynamic Korean approach to swordsmanship compared to the somewhat statics of Japanese swordsmanship (Yes, I am heavily generalizing here, sue me), but there is a lot of room for improvement.
     
  17. ScottUK

    ScottUK More human than human...

    This impresses me.

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jV3o4hzvjEE"]YouTube - Kata MAEZATO NO NUNCHAKU by Nakamoto Masahiro, hanshi 10th dan[/ame]

    This does not.

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zEZmo9gPCHk"]YouTube - Nunchaku Freestyle NYSA[/ame]

    This impresses me.

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LYKXrATefSQ"]YouTube - Shotokan Karate - Kata Unsu (M. Nakayama)[/ame]

    This does not.

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8c9Berc2-o"]YouTube - XMA (Xtreme Martial Arts)[/ame]

    This impresses me.

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7LDXpAohjQ"]YouTube - Hyoho Niten Ichi-ryu Kenjutsu Official Budokan Demonstration 2010[/ame]

    This does not.

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IC9N17w3jlM"]YouTube - Haedong Kumdo Korean Sword Martial Art Preview[/ame]

    See a pattern forming?
     
  18. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    Do you mind if I make a couple of observations?

    a.) The biomechanics that are much used in the form work reflect single-handed methods. Note that though the sword architecture being used is a two-handed sabre, the small, wrist-focused movements are characteristic of TO work.

    b.) When it comes time to do validation cutting----even the paper-cutting-- the biomechanics shift to two-handed cuts. Strictly speaking this is not true validation cutting. If a person demonstrates single-handed manipulation in their form, their cutting needs to validate that manipulation so the cutting needs to be single-handed. If a person wants to execute two-handed validation cutting, then their form-work needs to be two-handed as well.

    c.) The use of such sword-handling flourishes as the completion motions (Jap. "Chiburi"?) are not intrinsic to Korean sword work and need to be dropped. These movements were not part of the BUTOKUKAI-Choseon, were not part of the Police Sabre and were not part of the Military sabre, all of which were introduced by the Japanese during the Occupation. Prior to that such movements are not found in traditional Korean sword.

    Just some simple observations. YMMV.

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
     
  19. ScottUK

    ScottUK More human than human...

    What video are you commenting on?
     
  20. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    Sorry, Scott:

    I was referencing Hyeongsa's clip in Post #90. My bad.

    BTW: I am in complete agreement with your 6 comparitive clips. Nice job.

    BTW: I have that last HDGD set from Turtle Press. I stopped watching it because it made my eyes bleed. :p

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
     
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2011

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