Haedong or Kumdo?

Discussion in 'Weapons' started by Zatoichi1, Dec 25, 2010.

  1. Zatoichi1

    Zatoichi1 New Member

    Has anyone here studied iether of these two arts? And if so which would you choose as a main stay for weopanry. I am interested in the Korean sword style but do not kno which one to go into. I want realism but also tradition is big for me as well so I need some feed back. Also I just bought a Munetoshi Yuki Korean Jingum Spring steel sword that i'm aching to practice with.:eek:
  2. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    Hi, Thomas:

    Most of time I step on past "comparison" sword discussions, as the final conclusions happen, not in a post or on a thread, but in the mind of the person. I have some small appreciation for both of the practices you mention.

    KUMDO is a martial sport, derived to the greater extend from Japanese KENDO. Depending on the group with which you study, there can be a number of aspects to KUMDO which will allow you at least a taste of using a SHIM GEOM, but, frankly, even on the best of days the practice will be slight. The greater portion of KUMDO, like Kendo, is learning to whack your competition in very specific ways while avoiding such attacks in kind. The person who tags his opponent the quickest, the most or the most accurately gets a prize. Its excellent exercise and can be a wonderful way to move through well motivated groups of like-minded people as the organizations in the US are very well ordered and active.

    HAEDONG KUMDO is not a martial sport, though there are elements in the three top organizations who are constantly pressing for establishing venues whereby a person could pit his skill-level against that of another. The origins of HDKD are founded in the nocturnal inspirations of a Korean monk, CHANG Pak San, who formed a sword approach beginning in the 1960-s he called SHIN KUMDO. KIM Jeong-ho reported beginning his training in Korean sword under CHANG Park San about 1963. Following his training Kim developed the World Hae Dong KumDo Association based on this training. Then, during legal proceedings in the 1990-s it was revealed that HAE DONG KumDo is a fabrication of Kim’s own design integrating Gi Cheon esoteric practices and SHINKUMDO.

    Now, from a historical and practical POV the foundation for the use of the sword is essentailly BON KUK GEOM BEOP (lit: "native sword methods") a collection of techniques now commonly taught as a single form, and reported to have been absorbed from Korea to China in the 8th or 9th ceturiy, and later reintegrated back into Korean culture in the 16th Century (see: MAO Yuan-i). The original practice of these methods was with a TO or "single-handed sabre", but modern Korean sword practice is so heavily influenced by the SSANG SOO DO (Jap.: KATANA) that it is almost impossible to find BKGB practice by anyone outside of the HDGD groups, let alone using a TO. The one exception are the SIB PAL KI folks in Korea, who are understandably reluctant to let outsiders mess with their material. FWIW.

    Best Wishes,

  3. Neil Gendzwill

    Neil Gendzwill Valued Member

    Wow. That's super-dismissive and also inaccurate.

    Kumdo is Japanese-style kendo. It is mostly sparring using bamboo swords and armour, with some practice of paired kata using bokken. Your best source of information on that in English is the Kendo World website and magazine. There are also several excellent books in English, most recently "Kendo: The Definitive Guide" by Ozawa.

    Hae-Dong Gumdo is a commercial enterprise that, as Bruce points out, has a very patchy history. The participants can show a lot of skill and athleticism. If you're interested in learning to move in a showy way with a sword and actually do some cutting, and don't care what the origins are, it may be for you. A lot of people have fun with it, it's just best to go in with open eyes.
  4. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    Sorry, Neil. In an effort to be concise I think I did KENDO/KUMDO something of a disservice, and an apology is in order as well. Both KENDO, and its "kissing cousin", KUMDO deserve better than that. A more appropriate comment would have been to say that my experience with Kendo is insubstantial and deserves comment by an authoritative individual such as yourself. Again, my sincere apologies for not giving KENDO its due.

    BTWE: There are also some fine books on KUMDO, but they are, of course, all in Korean. The HAE DONG KUMDO text is available in English. FWIW.

    Best Wishes,

  5. OwlMAtt

    OwlMAtt Armed and Scrupulous

    I know next to nothing about haedong kumdo, but if you want something specifically Korean, mainstream kumdo really isn't where you should be looking. Mainstream kumdo is essentially Japanese kendo with Korean terminology.
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2011
  6. The Wiseman

    The Wiseman Valued Member

  7. hghlndr

    hghlndr Banned Banned

    iaido, iaijutsu, kendo = splinterings of kenjutsu which is japanese.
    haidong gumdo, haedong kumdo, kumdo, koryo gumdo - korean sword arts.
    if you like flashy kata and athleticism go the korean sword route with exception of kumdo only. Kumdo only = armor, shanai or as the koreans would say / armor and jukdo.

    The gumdo arts have main stay of poomsea or kata which resemble tae kwon do or karate kata. Iaido, Iaijutsu is more of a silent drill team kind of thing.
  8. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    What? :eek:

    How much iai have you done?
  9. Dave Humm

    Dave Humm Serving Queen and Country

    Reading ill-informed postings always makes my day.
  10. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    I smiled at your post, Dave, but I am also concerned when I see uninformed posts. Its not that I don't recognize variances in accuracy, but I get concerned for people (newbies?) who may not have that perspective.

    I have had the honor and pleasure of making the acquaintance of a few folks who practice Japanese KEN-JUTSU. I found nothing "mechanical" or "lock-step" about their practice. True, there were also folks who I thought were a shade too passionate (IE. "More Japanese than the Japanese", as it were), but at least they were deeply immersed in what they were about, yes? I also find the same thing with Korean sword. Once again, such folks are few and far between, but it is a pleasure to be around folks who take what they are doing seriously. FWIW.

    Best Wishes,

  11. hghlndr

    hghlndr Banned Banned


    before the flaming begins etc.....let me clarify, I am a disabled vet that wears braces on my knees and ankle. I have to practice it slow and mechanical. Now, compare the iaido kata to the haedong kumdo poomsea and you will see a better reference.

    Ask for clarification before jumping to conclusion man.
  12. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    I was :eek: at this:

  13. ScottUK

    ScottUK More human than human...

    Congrats on your study of iai despite the disability. Good to see!

    What style of iai do you practice? I am assuming you only do tachiwaza?
  14. hghlndr

    hghlndr Banned Banned

    I do the iaido kata standing up. Certainly not in seiza. Let me clarify, I was in the military so going slow, deliberate, sharp, and crisp on the movements is what I meant by silent drill. I was a marine so that is the frame of reference I am making.

    Plus folks use these videos of what I mean for a comparison of the Iai Jutsu and Haedong Kumdo......
    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMn1o-TCy_U"]YouTube - (Form #2) í•´ë™ê²€ ë„ æµ·æ±åŠé“ Haedong Kumdo[/ame]
    Plus we do the Kendo Kata.
  15. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    Aaaa....no. Don't know whatcha got there but its not HAE DONG KUMDO.

    Haidong Gumdo was created by Kim Jeong-Ho and Na Hanil, both of whom had studied the Korean sword arts of Gicheonmun (under Bak Daeyang) and Shim Gum Do (under Monk Kim Changsik). The SHIM KUMDO has gone on to be practices as its own from of "meditational movement". The original source material for HDKD ( BON KUK GEOM BEOP--lit: Native Sword Methods") was mixed with a bit of KI CHEON Breathing material and the result was marketed as original Korean sword. People have been splitting-off and adding Japanese material ever since. Most popular among the add-ons seem to be the EISHIN RYU material and thats what this seems to be.

    Now, lets back up a bit.

    First off, the use of a two-handed sabre in Korean material only got its popularity with its import from Japanese during the Occupation (1910 - 1946). Until then the single-handed TO was the typical military side-arm. BON KUK GUM BUP was intended to be accomplished with this item and not a two-handed weapon. Why the Koreans, who report terrible treatment by the Japanese during the Occupation, would want to use Japanese traditions is beyond me. However, I admit that the use of the two-handed weapon is far easier to teach since one uses the entire body as a unit and the handes work in unison during execution.

    Secondly, as I say, people have been tacking Japanese stuff onto the HDKD curriculum for some years now and still calling it "Korean". Fact is that the Koreans, themselves, are the biggest offenders in the respect. I have often wondered if the fad had gone more towards Chinese sword----arguably a greater influence to Korean practice-- if there hadn't been so many books on Japanese sword for KMA teachers to peruse in private and then represent as though they knew something.

    Lastly, I think it would be really interesting if someone identified the guy in the clip and then traced his roots backward to where he first picked-up his practice. I'm going to take a wild guess and figure he started in a KUMDO/KENDO hall and then switched to some HDKD organization when it suited his purpose. FWIW.

    Best Wishes,

    Last edited: Mar 9, 2011
  16. antilie

    antilie Valued Member

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7BoI4gWXN4"]YouTube - (字幕)クムド(KUMDO)ã¯æ造ã€éŸ“国人もèªã‚ã¦ã„ã‚‹[/ame]

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xcc3_iBmMyM&feature=related"]YouTube - Kumdo Fraud - Bonguk Geom[/ame]

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ImWL-N582ZU&feature=related"]YouTube - Gumdo Kumdo Propaganda[/ame]

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Xz_6MUYHcM&feature=related"]YouTube - Background of Korean martial arts[/ame]
  17. ScottUK

    ScottUK More human than human...

    What style of iai is it?
  18. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    Thanks, Antille:

    I'm wondering if you could edit your post to just the third selection. The other clips are argumentative and don't really speak to HDKD. Help?

    Best Wishes,

  19. antilie

    antilie Valued Member

    The video which you showed is the channel which Greg Park manages.
    A person of the videos is Mr. Kumudo which Greg studies under for one year.

    Greg Park is the fraud who called itself a progeny of Japanese Ninjya.
    Greg Park = Choson Ninjya taught students Kenjutu (kumudo) as Master from 2007.

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qs89lwX0YfY"]YouTube - カンコク グムソル[/ame]
  20. Kogusoku

    Kogusoku 髭また伸びた! Supporter





    Oh God that is so bad it make me nauseous.

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