Guidelines for Choosing a Self Defense Course

Discussion in 'Women's Self Defence' started by KickChick, Nov 7, 2003.

  1. Moi

    Moi Warriors live forever x

    I really do t think that many martial artist actually realise how much work is involved in training to a reasonable level
    There's a reason it's effective and together with technique at all ranges you need exceptional cardio and good strength
    All that work provides results
  2. FunnyBadger

    FunnyBadger I love food :)

    With regards grappling for self defence its a pretty effective strategy to throw the other dude and run away while they are on the floor. Creates plenty of time to get away safely and can provide a pretty big incentive for them not to chase you down. I have done this in the past to good effect.

    Obvious it's better to avoid having to do the throw if you can but when it come down to it grappling has got good self defence applications. And the ground is not an inherently dangerous place to be. The whole debate about grappling for self defence seems to be polarised in a very unhelpful way.

    Either the whole world is made of lava/glass and everyone has mates that like stamping or 99% end up on the floor so do bjj. There is a middle ground lol
  3. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Threw a very experienced student of mine on Judo mats last Friday and tore their ACL...With no training and on concrete it would have been instant wipe out

    Grappling: why use you fist when you can use the planet?
  4. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    When you're on the ground, you sacrifice a large percentage of your mobility and ability to observe your surroundings.

    If you're working in a team, then that personal sacrifice may well pay off, as you can trust the others in your team to make up your deficit and capitalise on you restricting your opponents' mobility and ability to observe.

    If you're on your tod, then mobility and observation are critical factors, and sacrificing them should only be done as part of a clear plan, not as standard operating procedure.

    Didn't Geoff Thompson say he knew a handful of people killed or crippled whilst fighting on the ground?
  5. raaeoh

    raaeoh never tell me the odds

    Yes it is defiantly a combat sport. the rule set keeps it from being considered self defense. I don't think breaking the rules in a an Self defense scenario would be all that difficult.

    Take away situation awareness, and I have got to believe that training to the mma rules and skill set would make one better prepared for the "average" self defense scenario that would be most likey experienced, than most of the other MAs.

    I am doing some katana training because it's really cool. With no prior knowledge of self defense, would I not be able to use that skill set to defense myself? Provided I happend to have a 42 inch stick in my possession because carrying a ninja sword is just asking for trouble.:hat:

    Katana part has nothing to do with the ground I know but I just felt like adding it in any way.
  6. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Another gem from Geoff :)

    [ame=""]Geoff Thompson - Words of Wisdom - YouTube[/ame]

    MMA training definitely has a lot going for it that is rare, or missing from other MA's: getting hit, having to deal with the unexpected and engaging in general rough and tumple.
  7. FunnyBadger

    FunnyBadger I love food :)

    So once again it's the mates argument lol

    In all seriousness though it's not the ground that's dangerous it's the circumstances ie when your assailant/opponent has friends with them. I'm not saying it should be a go to solution but it's not something that should be seen as instant death outside of a dojo.

    Aside from the ground how many trained strikers can take on 3 or more people at once without injury? Being outnumbers is bad news on your feet or on the floor, I agree the floor is probably more dangerous but it's the circumstances of being outnumbered that's the bigger issuenic you ask me.

    Running away is often the best option and even more so when outnumbered and it's harder to do that from the floor I agree but if running away isn't an option most people are pretty screwed either way.
  8. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Yes, other attackers are a big factor, but you could come a cropper due to environmental hazards too (not just lava). Observation of one opponent is still important though - it's easier to see someone get a knife out of their pocket if you're on your feet and a foot or two away from your attacker.

    Note that I did not say "never", just that you must choose your circumstance. Weighing that up is something you have to do in your training, because you won't have the luxury of contemplation should you have to use your training against a violent assault.

    You already said it in your post: Trying to evade and escape 3 people on your feet is tough. Trying to do that with submission ground fighting is nigh on impossible. I'm not saying that all grappling is a bad idea, just that choosing to go to the ground is often a bad idea.

    Also note that I think that the best way, or indeed the only way, to defend against grappling is to train grappling.

    But, at the end of the day, no-one has unlimited training time. We are all mortal and must prioritise how, and what, we train. For the physical aspect of SD I would expect that training to give me the best odds in the most likely situations I would encounter. Most SD trainers seem to agree that giving and avoiding hand strikes, mobility and simple tactics such as flanking (also a product of mobility) are king when it comes to civilian violence.
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2015
  9. Indie12

    Indie12 Valued Member

    Mixed Martial Arts trains for one on one and without weapons. Self-Defense situations train for one on one or two on one or etc... As well as with weapons and multiple attackers, etc....

    If you're on the ground, you've already lost half the fight there!! Jiu-Jitsu is a good system, but on the street if you're on the ground you have a huge disadvantage. First, your mobility is limited, 2nd the bad guy could have friends or worst weapons, and last, you could have glass, spit, body fluids, feces, blood, needles, oil, etc, etc... On the ground. (Wanna roll around on that?)

    Mixed Martial Arts is SPORT, not Self-Defense. It looks good but it doesn't work. Now granted there are several systems (Kajukenbo, JKD, etc) which train both stand up striking and on the ground (although they encourage fighting from the standing position). However, these systems are not truly "Mixed Martial Arts" since the term MMA is a way to describe cage fighting.
  10. Indie12

    Indie12 Valued Member

    Just so you know, even Cops aren't taught to fight from the ground (they are, but it's only for enough time to get back on the feet), nor really soldiers, since it's a disadvantage in a fight/combat. I'm speaking form experience!! :)
  11. Indie12

    Indie12 Valued Member

    So, it's the ground!!? Since if the bad guy has friends or weapons with him/her?;)
  12. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Does everyone else in the world go out alone or something? If they have frineds chances are I do too. Furthermore mass attacks and weapon attacks are still the minority, despite what teh press would have you believe. Square go's are still common too, and even a group fight can be negotiated to a square go if played correctly

    If your ability to handle someone one on one is flawed you don;t gain magic powers when numbers increase. As for weapons defense....most is utter crap - and that is me being kind

    LEO's are not taught to fight on the ground in the conventional sense but they ARE taught to get someone to the ground and keep them there - and guess how that is best serviced and acheived?
  13. 47MartialMan

    47MartialMan Valued Member

    What is a "square go" (Perhaps setting myself up for humor responses)

    How is that best serviced and achieved?
  14. Matt F

    Matt F Valued Member

    It's funny because SD training is meant to be so bad and nasty and serious and its meant to be something better than full contact sport training because sport training has so many flaws.....yet these flaws are no where near as bad as those found in SD training.
    Two massive ones for me ,are that no one on this planet can say how skilled an attacker will be untill the attack is under way. So for anyone in SD who perpetrates an idea ,no matter how good an argument they think they have, that most attacks will be easy to deal with or that you can predict the kind of attack, goes totally against the idea that SD is serious .....if it's that serious why take such a risk? The truth is no one actually I'm happy to spend what time I have training,even if it's not as much as I'd like sometimes, to deal with highly skilled people.

    Another is the unpredictability of assaults and violence. No one has that much control that they can determine the range or surroundings or anything just goes where it one wants it to go the ground ....but it's not about what anyone just is. So all ranges have to be covered. So it's totally irrelevant to say about glass on the floor or friends kicking you in the head so going the ground is could and does happen no matter if it's liked or not....if SD is so serious and the worst place is the ground... training for the worst possible situation is good training.
  15. Moi

    Moi Warriors live forever x

    Not surprising if you have no skill there?
  16. ap Oweyn

    ap Oweyn Ret. Supporter

    If you're standing up and facing multiple attackers, odds are good that your mobility is also limited, that the bad guy has friends, that the friends have weapons, and that you're winding up on that awful ground anyway. The thing to remember about groundfighting from a self-defense perspective is that most practitioners aren't advocating taking it to the ground. They're saying you're probably going there, whether you like it or not. And wouldn't it be nice to know what you're doing when you arrive.

    Mixed martial arts also provides an observable, reproducible set of outcomes. Self-defense, on the other hand, doesn't. It's not as though we've got tons of examples of kajukenbo and JKD being successfully used against multiple, weapon-wielding attackers on the dirty, dirty streets. If we're going to use that set of parameters against MMA, we have to also be prepared to analyze how non-MMA would fare within those same parameters. And not just in theory. Actual evidence.
  17. FunnyBadger

    FunnyBadger I love food :)

    You say soldiers are not taught to fight on the ground, have you looked into modern army combatives? MAC is taught to all U.S. combat troops and contains lots of material very familiar to anyone from a bjj/judo background ie grappling/ground fighting.

    Im not saying "learn bjj, they teach it to american soldiers" I'm just saying it would be a lie to say soldiers aren't taught to fight from the ground.
  18. FunnyBadger

    FunnyBadger I love food :)

    No the ground isn't dangerous. Fighting someone with a weapon is dangerous and fighting multiple people is dangerous, the ground isn't.
  19. bassai

    bassai onwards and upwards ! Moderator Supporter

    And lava , you forgot the lava
  20. SWC Sifu Ben

    SWC Sifu Ben I am the law


    The ground isn't dangerous. Not knowing how to operate on it is.

    • Falling and hitting your head
    • Being trapped between the ground and your adversary
    • Having your head bounced off of the ground by their fists

    All very dangerous and all very solvable by learning breakfalls and some basic grappling skills. You don't have to be a grappling master. Heck I do a striking style where you try to avoid the ground like the plague, but I also spent enough time in BJJ and MMA to learn that even if you don't want to be on the ground you better learn to deal with it.

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