Guba Doce Pares in The North East

Hi All, those certified in Guba Doce Pares Eskrima under myself, as per the latest Newsletter, as of January 2011, anyone not training for six month or more will be dropped a grade (1 grade per six months missed). This is being done to stop people claiming to teach Guba Doce Pares or DP based FMA in the North East of England without keeping their skills up to date.

Bill Lowery

 

So if someone has not trained for long enough they will owe you a grade?

Anyway, I thought you announced that you had left Guba Doce Pares

http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=98377

so does that mean every six months you too will drop a grade and end up being a White belt again???

 

Please explain. Surely if you have left a group / system you have no authority to take grades away from people without the permission of the head of the organisation namely GM Danny? and surely if they have spent their time and hard earned cash attaining the grade you can't take it back?

Bit like selling me a tv at full price and taking it back simply because I have not watched it yet wouldn't you say?

 

This is kinda confusing Bill!

1. If you're no longer an instructor in a system, then surely you don't have the authority to promote/demote students in that system? If, of course, the head of the system has ok'd it, then fair play...

2. If someone has been tested and proved themselves technically proficient to a certain level, then they have earned the right to say so. You can't strip someone of their achievements unless there is proof to say they won them fraudulently. If, of course, one suspects that they no longer meet the minimum requirements of an important position/grade (such as instructor status), then they can certainly be re-evaluated. But then the re-evaluation can only come from someone representing the organisation who awarded the grade in the first place!

3. I understand the concept of skill-fade, but just because a person hasn't trained in a system for some time, doesn't mean their skills aren't sharp. For example, i used to train in jiujitsu several years ago, and i still frequently apply the knowledge and techniques i picked up from those classes. If anything, i'd say my jiujitsu is even better now than it was then! 6 months seems like quite an arbitrary figure though, or is there evidence to support the fact that your students' (ex or current) abilities will degrade at the rate of 1 grade every 6 months if they don't show their face at class?

I don't mean any disrespect Bill. It just seems that this policy has been introduced rather hastily, and sets a very worrying precedent for your students, or new potential students. I struggle to see the logic behind it. More cynical readers might see it as a way of scaring students with poor attendance back to class, or giving the finger to students that have since moved onto other things. I'd hope that's not the case.

 

Hi Janno

Hi Janno,

1. If you're no longer an instructor in a system, then surely you don't have the authority to promote/demote students in that system? If, of course, the head of the system has ok'd it, then fair play...<

I'm still an instructor in DP, and the people I am referring to have graded under me, not Danny or any other instructor.

2. If someone has been tested and proved themselves technically proficient to a certain level, then they have earned the right to say so. You can't strip someone of their achievements unless there is proof to say they won them fraudulently. If, of course, one suspects that they no longer meet the minimum requirements of an important position/grade (such as instructor status), then they can certainly be re-evaluated. But then the re-evaluation can only come from someone representing the organisation who awarded the grade in the first place!<

Again, I awarded the grade!! This is more about stooping people using a title they have no longer any right to, due to lack of support for the system. People train up to a level, then stop training but continue "teaching" the art. Its an attempt to stop people passing themselves off as "currently" up to date with their training and therefore able to teach when they haven't been with a qualified instructor, in some cases, for over a year.

3. I understand the concept of skill-fade, but just because a person hasn't trained in a system for some time, doesn't mean their skills aren't sharp. For example, i used to train in jiujitsu several years ago, and i still frequently apply the knowledge and techniques i picked up from those classes. If anything, i'd say my jiujitsu is even better now than it was then! 6 months seems like quite an arbitrary figure though, or is there evidence to support the fact that your students' (ex or current) abilities will degrade at the rate of 1 grade every 6 months if they don't show their face at class? <

I have students who are still sharp when they choose to turn up every 18months or so! Nope, again this is to stop people passing themselves off as instructors/specfic grades, when they are showing no support for the system/art, but are claiming to teach or still be current, at a certain grade.

I don't mean any disrespect Bill. It just seems that this policy has been introduced rather hastily, and sets a very worrying precedent for your students, or new potential students. I struggle to see the logic behind it. More cynical readers might see it as a way of scaring students with poor attendance back to class, or giving the finger to students that have since moved onto other things. I'd hope that's not the case.<

Not hasty, I've been considering this for some time - may be badly worded though! Not an attempt to scare anyone or give the finger (nice phrase, I must use it more often..;-) ). I've had people come back after many months/years, who didn't want to go through basic grades again, because *they* knew they were still good. I've also had people come back who recognised the need to regrade - especially in a system which is evolving and where the syllabus can be changed, at times its seems, on a yearly basis!!!

As I've said, its an attempt to make sure that anyone teaching can say they are up to date with the learning of the system.

Bill

 

Now I'm confused, you clearly stated that the revoking of certification was to all those you graded in 'Guba Doce Pares' and not Doce Pares as a whole of which there are several branches each with their own unique syllabus (Guba Doce Pares Included). And you no longer represent,

So surely if you no longer represent Guba Doce Pares the revoking of any rank will fall to GM Danny Guba the head of the system??? So does that mean you have revoked your own rank in Guba Doce Pares too???? Or does that still stand?????

And surely once a person received their rank it cant be taken away unless it is specifically written in to the regulations before hand and they are fully aware of it.

For instance I have a structure where are if you do not complete the Junior Instructor Grade followed by the Full Instructor grade and you stop training you then are officially recognised by the organisation as Brown Belt level 3. Because the structure of gaining instructor status in my group is a two part test both of which have to be completed to hold the rank of instructor / black belt but my people know that in advance. Bit like a UK motor bike licence if you like, in that you have to complete part one and you are allowed to drive for a certain time but in order to ride a real bike you need to complete part two..

But I have had people leave for one reason or another at full instructor level or above and I would not even dream of asking them for their rank back, after all they earned the right to that little peice of paper.

Granted they no longer represent the group but once they have attained a certain level you cant simply take it away after all it is in their head, they know it, they earned it.

Yes I can understand if people are not supporting the group then you can remove them from the list as no longer being active in the group, but they got your signature on it saying their good enough and you cant go back on your word just because they choose to take another direction can you?

 

I seem to recall similar comments being made a few years ago. At the time, I believe a legal position was stated that a grade cannot be taken from a person once awarded, unless there was a full refund of any money paid (lessons and grading fees) towards achieving that rank, and even then the legality is questionable. I would be the first to admit that I am not legally qualified, but these details have stuck in my mind for several years already. Certainly, in over 38 years of martial arts, I have not heard of a successful down-grading on the merit of non-attendance. The only cases that I have 'very occasionally' heard of are of gross misconduct, which is a different situation altogether.

Gumagalang

Peter

 

downgrading people

It seems to me that you are not so much aiming to maintain quality more a question of 'persuading 'absentees from your class to return to your classes by threatening to downgrade them. If you decided to take a break would you downgrade yourself? I think not.

 

He has taken a break. He left Guba Doce Pares so-
Like I said earlier now that he has left Guba Doce Pares has he revoked his own grades in Guba Doce Pares or do they still stand? And if they do still stand in his eyes then it sounds more like 'don't do as I do, do as I tell you'. Double standards maybe?

As far as I am concerned good instructors in any martial arts are and should be guides not Dictators.

 

guides not dictators

Dear Pat,
A man after my own heart.Too many guys are egocentric and develop a Napoleon complex.They want to control people.
I see myself as a servant to my group not a master.Its called beginners mind. Joe.Ps I dont do Escrima.

 

They do have a right to the title if they earned the title in the first place. Just because they want to go off and do their own thing doesn't mean they don't retain the right to the title. Basically, you want to behave like a tin pot dictator and force people who disagree with you for whatever reason to stay under your control. What's next, you gonna start denouncing people that ignore your edict. Maybe turn up to clubs to enforce it. Frankly the idea is too ridiculous to contemplate. Kinda getting a picture why the people may have left in the first place.

The Bear.

 

Now that I would like to see. The thing is most people who act like this are insecure in their own abilities and swap that with bullying tactics such as this. I think he would have trouble turning up the gas let alone turning up to a club to enforce his dictorial approach.

Best regards

Pat

 

Bill,

I'm wondering what you were hoping for when you posted this here. Presumably, you've contacted the affected parties about this directly.

Just as a matter of personal opinion, if I were one of the people affected, I'd be pretty nonplussed. I feel like this is a political move, not a pedogological one. And it would really come down to you running about telling everyone that so-and-so is no longer a lakan guro as far as you're concerned. And then so-and-so, probably, shrugging their shoulders and doing what they're doing anyway.

Are there better and worse teachers out there? Sure. Are there teachers who let their skills fade and rest on their laurels as teachers? Absolutely. But there are also teachers who move on and evolve, training on their own, with their students, or with other teachers. This policy of yours seems like a way of keeping them under your control, versus allowing them to make their own way (however that way shapes up to look).

There's quality control and then there's just control.

It seems to me that the clear implication of grading someone is that they are now, in your estimation, ready to make their own way. If that's not how you feel about these people, I'm unclear on why you graded them at all. I've never heard of such a measure being put in place. And, being graded in Doce Pares myself, I'm fairly confident that it's not a general DP measure.


Stuart

 

I can remember many years back the head of a system that I trained in issuing an edict that henceforth all grades were revocable and any certificates or materials that had been issued were to be returned if a person left the system. Someone asked if the cash they'd paid for these certificates etc would be refunded on return and oddly enough never received a reply. :whistle:

I left not long after that

 

I have another question. I have video footage at home where I interviewed SGM Dionisio Canete at the HQ and in it I asked 'Do you have to come to the HQ in Cebu to gain your black belt in Doce Pares?' to which he clearly states and I quote: 'No, both yourself Pat and Danny Guba can issue black belts in the UK and we have other people in Europe and the USA that can also do this.'

So if Bill is grading people on his own to instructor level and authorising them to teach Doce Pares who authorised it? Because it was not SGM Dionisio of Doce Pares Multi Style or SGM Cacoy of Cacoy Doce Pares as he is not a member of CDP? And if it was GM Danny of Guba Doce Pares then surely only GM Danny can revoke any instructor rank ( for reasons of misconduct etc ) now that Bill no longer belongs to that branch either

But in the interests of keeping the good name of Doce Pares as a whole in the UK and being only one of two seniors authorised to award black belt / instructor ranks under SGM Dionisio and the HQ in Cebu I will personally uphold any instructor rank Bill issued on his own in DP before he left GM Danny. All the have to do is contact me and show me evidence of the fact and that's it.

And in case your wondering Bill. I will no be asking them for a single cent or to join my group either. I have nothing to gain other than upholding the good ne of Doce Pares as a whole in the UK.

Best regards

Pat

 

A most generous offer Pat. Good to see that there are still some men of honour out there. We may not see eye to eye on many issues but on this you have my respect.

The Bear.

 

Honorable men can disagree and be civilised about it. I don't agree on a lot of things with close freinds but they are still close freinds.

And what good is a debate if the two sides agree all the time and if we all thought the same what a boring world that would be eh!

But at least we have standards and honour and don't try to control or dictate to people.

Best regards

Pat

 

Perhaps I'm missing something here, but among the many good points made on this thread, the bit in bold stands out most.

Why do they no longer have a right to a grade they achieved, because they no longer support your system?
Plenty of other interesting questions - under whose authority are you now grading? If someone graded under you before you left Guba are you calling them out as well? Is there a big trend in the NE for being 'current' in your art? - down here people are either a black belt or a 5th dan or a fully qualified instructor, whatever - I've never seen a poster or business card that said 'up to date' unless it referred to first aid or CRB for kids classes.
Your original post also said it is to stop people claiming 'Guba' or 'DP based' FMA. If you're not Guba now, that's no longer your lineage, and if someone trained in DP, why is what they're now doing not 'DP based'?

So, lots of unanswered questions, but the one I really want to wrap my head round is the idea that the right to an earned title is dependent on supporting the system. How does that work?

 

with lots of cash and a large lashing of brushing the inflated ego of the Supreme Grand Impearial Wizard of the Lowrey Doce Pares Pyramid System.

 

Really or were you just not paying attention. I can't speak for GDP or CDP but the Doce Pares Original Multi Style Curriculum has not changed since its finalisation in 2005. The 5 year training program to reach black belt was set then and is still the same now. I seen the first draft in 1999 and subsiquent drafts until its completion.

So what curriculum are we talking about? And what system are we talking about. Guba, Cacoy, Original Multi Style, Carin, Orihinal, San
Miguel, and the list goes on. Remember Doce Pares Originally Had 12 distinct systems in it's group in 1932 and since the a few more have evolved from it. So which System was it you said?