Groundfighting

To continue the discussion on groundfighting from the CKD thread.

Personally I am comfortable fighting off my back. Not by any means a grappler but I can hold my own fairly well.

If I am on my back though, I will go for a knee or ankle breaking attack to take my opponent down if they are standing, or a breakaway throwing strikes and return to my feet, especially if facing multiple opponents. I don't see myself having much chance against more than one person when half the fight is already won for them

Rob

 

Whether you want to stay there or not is your decission, it will depend entirely on the situation.

However wether you want to stay there or not you still have to have groundfighting skills. You have to be able to control the fight while on the ground if you want to be able to get back to your feet. If someone is sitting on you punching down at you you are in REALLY BIG TROUBLE. You have to learn how to prevent them from getting this position and how to react if they do.

To learn this, you have to practice groundfighting. Not just a couple of simple drills to get a guy off, really fight for positions. Don't even need to do submissions if your goal is to get away, but reversals, and ground control are still neccessary.

Personally I want the submissions, I'd rather choke him out then knock him out. But if there is more then one person the ground is a bad idea, no one can argue that. And if you do end up there you had better have really good ground skills so that you can regain your feet FAST.

On locks, its not neccessary to tie yourself up. Locks can be applied so that you can be free and the other guy out of the fight really quickly if need be.

On chokes, they are safe if you do them right, they can be practiced with realism. I know that if I don't let go when he taps he will be unconscious in a matter of seconds. If that does happen he'll make up on his own shortly, but it shouldn't really happen in training. Just make sure everyone taps.

There are different sorts of chokes though, some are safe, others can do some damage. Cutting of the carotid arteries is best, its quick and effective and does no permenant damage.

 

Someone made a comment about taking the first oppertunity to get off the ground and kick the guy whilst he's down - YES.

The problem here is gettting off the ground in the first place, and doing it in such a way as to not make yourself vunerable, sounds easy, but its not.

Thanx

 

Good stuff Andrew - pretty much my view. Positional control is as vital to groudfighting as footwork is to standing fighting - it's your base.

I'm not keen on the word submission - how's the guy supposed to know he should "submit" - and if he does "tap" would you believe him? I prefere to break a joint or choke him unconscious - then decide if he would like to continue the altercation. Obviously there are scenarios where you must restrain / control - position is better than pain for that.

What many do not differentiate is the difference between grappling & groundfighting.

Grappling - positional control, escapes & reversals, submissions / finishes.

Groundfighting - Grappling plus strikes, bites, gouges & weapons.

The big thing people miss is that grappling is a required base for groundfighting. It doesn't work without it.

 

Yoda,

Yep, I was thinking training, not fighting when I wrote that.

What happens after you have gotten to that point would depend on the situation...

 

Andrew,
I agree completely. My preference for getting back to my feet is because I doubt I will last in an extended fight with a real experienced ground-fight/grappler. I have had some informal training with people I know who train in ground oriented systems, but most of what I have done was with wrestlers at the High School or College level, combined with my own "applied" knowledge of ending up on my back (learning the hard way I guess). I am comfortable there, but not enough that I would want to be there for long.
Submissions I stay away from. If I apply a lock on the ground, or standing, I will mostly fully torque it and go for a permanent solution rather than trust that the person has really had enough. Not always a wise choice, especially with legality issues, but I'd rather a $300 fine if I must than a $1000 hospital bill lol.

Rob

 

I know this is a groundfighting thread, but why when people talk about grappling do they make the assumption of going to the ground?

What about standing grappling? It does exist!!!

Col

 

I think standing grappling is just as big a part of street confrontations. Alot of people still do the pushing and shoving, etc. I know alot of Tai Jutsu techniques that I have done start from grabs to the chest/lapel area where someone grabs to push you in a fight. But other than Hapkido most arts I have been exposed to don't cover these attacks at all.

Rob

 

I agree with you Waya & Freeform, grappling is a big and important part of street fighting whether its standing or on the ground. Often people say they don’t want to learn grappling because they don’t want to fight like that, there missing the point! To avoid being grappled to the ground they need to learn grappling.

I enjoy grappling. My first martial art was Judo, I did that for a few years and then recently I’ve been learning a little Jujitsu just to further improve my ground fighting. But these clubs only seemed concerned with grappling. Almost entirely ignoring the possibility that somebody will do something other than grapple on the floor. It wasn’t until I went to my now Kung Fu club that I started learning ground fighting. Punches, headbutts, gouges, bites etc. I learnt a lot, including how the ground was a bad place to be, if only for the fact that your head is at good for mates of opponent kicking height.

So to answer the original question I would try and get to my feet as quickly as possible. If you are sure nobody else will join in then that’s different. Even then it can be more risky with the close combat. I had a friend that easily won a fight on the ground but still had most of his right ear bitten off. I’ve seen some ugly fights that have gone to the ground. One where a guy had to have blood drained from his brain after being kicked, another one I managed to break up when somebody else joined in kicking to the head like an animal.

So I hope you’ll understand why I don’t want to loose the mobility of being on my feet :Angel:

 

Agreed Freeform - when we talk about stanging grappling we call it Clinchwork rather than grappling. We don't apply locks etc standing - experience has found them to be errrr..... less than reliable.

 

If a fighter takes me to the ground, he'd better be a skilled ground fighter. A person can defend him/herself on the ground having some knowledge against a person who has none, so in that senerio, I'd stay, however if that person seems to know what his doing and seems skilled on the ground, I'm getting the hell out of there and, well you know what I always say:woo:

 

The problem is that you chances of doing just that decrease as his knowledge of grappling increases.

 

Yoda, I agree. If they are experienced, it will have to be a fast and very strong break to escape. But still a better choice rather than losing on my back because I know he is better.

Rob

 

Here's one for you .....

The realisation on the ground that he is better gives you the wish and, if you have the ability, the option, of getting up to standing - presumably where you feel you stand (pun!) a better chance.

Let's apply the same thought the other way around. Let's say you are fighting standing and you realise he is better than you - what many fail to realise is that you can escape to the ground too - IF you are a competent grappler. It gives you another option other than getting your butt kicked - another "arena".

Grappling is a VERY important part of real fighting - it happens a lot, whether it fits you gameplan or not. BUT it is not, as the current vogue would have us believe, the be all & end all - it is an inportant part of the picture - but still just a part. If we seek proficiency for all likely scenarios then we must be functional standing, on the ground, seated, one up one down, against weapons, with weapons - the list goes on. when I say functional I mean we must train these things regularly against realistic levels of resistance - it's not sufficient to be a one dimensional martial artist with the addition of "I would just (insert blind faith in something not part of their regular training)"

 

I don't know how long I have been saying that lol. The current fad would have everyone believe that grappling is the only way to train. What is that grappler runs into a far superior striking fighter and doesn't hit the ground until they are taking an unexpected nap? I think it's equally important to train both groundfighting and striking in an equal manner. No one system can cover it all.

Rob

 

Nobody sounds too concerned about being attacked by other people while ground fighting. How would you asses the risk of this, before deciding whether you want to fight either ground or standing?

 

lol I never "decide" to fight from the ground. That's the last place I want to be, no matter how well trained I am in fighting there. If there is more than one person involved, I am getting back up if I have to bite, kick, scream, and generally just play dirty. IMO if I stay on the ground against multiple attackers, I might just as well beat myself to hell for them.

Rob

 

Yoda, Waya, I've been saying that for years!!! (You guys just use more and bigger words )

And I am concerned about being on the ground, its the last place I want to be! I can speak from experience on the subject having been kicked to s*** by multiple opponents on the ground more than once. So no, I am not 'not concerned' about being on the ground.

Thanx

 

You lost me a bit there Freeform, you are and aren't concerned about being on the ground[?] I think I know where your going. But what would be your requirements for allowing the fight to go to the ground?

 

Double negative, it means I'm VERY concerned about going to the ground. My requirements would be if I was put there (then I'd try and get back up very fast), there was only the two of us (on a Desert Island perhaps) or it was a match fight and I had guys watching my back.

Or perhaps if it were a woman

Col