Groundfighting for 'the street'

Discussion in 'Self Defence' started by idols11, Jun 3, 2015.

  1. idols11

    idols11 Valued Member

    How much groundfighting skill is needed to survive on the street? Do you need to be a BJJ blackbelt?

    Does groundfighting change radically when you include dirty strikes?

    What about variables such as multiple attackers or weapons etc?

    I would be interested in answers from those more experienced than I.

    Personally - I do MMA and I have learned groundfighting. But I don't think going to ground on purpose is the best idea. Its wise however to be able to survive the ground. I think also on the street, escapes and strikes are just as important than submissions.
  2. holyheadjch

    holyheadjch Valued Member

    No. A little gives you a big advantage over someone with no clue.
    A little.
    If you are fighting multiple people and you are on the ground, you are probably getting stomped.
    Fighting on purpose is never the best idea anyway. If you're fighting a single person, you want the fight wherever your advantage is largest. If you are fighting more than one person, you want the fight wherever you can run away the fastest.
  3. Southpaw535

    Southpaw535 Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    Depends how you define it. The skill you need to "win" on the ground may be halfway considerable. Holy's right someone with a little skill has an advantage over someone with none. However a little skill in, say, bjj, is likely not to mean much when someone is punching you for instance. The skill you need to survive by the strictest definition is minimal. I'm confident I could teach anyone to create space and stand up against an untrained opponent and make them proficient at it within a couple of hours.

    Ehhhh sorta. When someone can gouge your eyes out you'll be less willing to do things that let their hands near your face. Conversely being free to do it to your opponent would open up other things.

    Then you're boned.

    Honestly? I think submissions are bollocks on the street for the most part. If I could teach someone a few submissions or could teach them to sweep or stand up I'd take the latter every time.
  4. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    8 out of 10 times I'd agree every time.
  5. holyheadjch

    holyheadjch Valued Member

    Yeah, there is a huge psychological obstacle you'll need to get past to actually break someones arm/leg. Most of us aren't wired to inflict that kind of damage.

    Chokes are cool though. You choke someone out, you can move him in a restraining position and wait for the police to arrive (or put the boot in a couple of times and get the hell out of there).
  6. Kurtka Jerker

    Kurtka Jerker Valued Member

    Well except that in the eyes of your opponent, and often the law, a choke escalates the situation to lethal force.
    You could turn a fistfight into an attempted murder, both during the fight and in the later prosecution, even if your opponent was never in any danger.

    But anyway, position and the scramble become much more important skills in a real fight. They permit you to use all your other weapons from jointlocks, pins and strikes on up to a handgun.
    I know I am mentally capable of breaking a limb and I know when I would escalate to that level, but without that, jointlocks aren't a wise approach.
  7. Johnno

    Johnno Valued Member

    I've survived on the street for nearly fifty two years, and I have very little groundfighting skill. But I would recommend the Green Cross Code.
  8. Prizewriter

    Prizewriter Moved on

    I agree with Holyhead, you don't need to be a black belt. Heck, a 3 or 4 stripe white belt should know enough to stay safe.

    I would say a skill that is more important would be the ability to stay on your feet or get back on your feet quickly.

    Completely agree. Knowing how to escape is the most important factor IMO. I said before in BJJ I don't know why "points players" are viewed as being inferior in relation to self defence. A "points player" with good takedown skills and good sweeping skills should have enough ability to stay on their feet, or escape from the ground quickly if need be.
  9. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Moved on MAP 2017 Gold Award

    A points player to me is a butt scooter and guard puller.
  10. Prizewriter

    Prizewriter Moved on

    I've seen sub guys play that game too, but I agree that a lot of styles of BJJ (like the Mendes bros ) is not necessarily conducive to a self-defense situation.
  11. Bomber

    Bomber Valued Member

    If you are in Rio and get in a fight with a Vale Tudo fighter / BJJ purple belt you need to have BJJ black belt skills or you're getting hurt. If you're fighting an aggressive drunken chav with no formal training a three stripe white belt with some take downs will be more than enough.
  12. Thomas

    Thomas Combat Hapkido/Taekwondo

    I think at least a basic skill set in ground fighting is necessary for 'self defense'.

    In my opinion, if your basic awareness/avoidance/de-escalation doesn't work, you need to know what basic takedowns look (and feel like) so you can learn how to react. You need to learn and practice basic breakfalls (preferably in conjunction with the take downs)

    You should also know some basic defenses like using your range, posting, and spawling.

    You should have 1 or 2 basic techniques to escape a guard or mount and practice working in both positions.

    With all of those, you need to be able to (and practice) regaining your feet and looking to escape (or fight more)

    More training is better, but in my opinion, everyone should have some basic skills in ground defense/ground survival to round out their 'self defense'

    Yes... but you still need the above skills, in my opinion regardless.
  13. altc

    altc Valued Member

    You need to know enough so that your ground skills are equal to all of your other skills (standing striking/clinch/weapons etc).

    It's about being balanced and not having vulnerabilities. Real encounters are dynamic. Expect to start standing, maybe take a hit, clinch, fall over with an aggressor, scramble on ground, stand back up, a friend steps in from a flank, someone throws a glass, crowd is moving, emotions high...

    It's about being adaptable.
  14. GrappleGeezer

    GrappleGeezer New Member

    I would say yes. It's funny that I learned this from my five and ten year old children. They both practice jiu jitsu and Gracie teaches them striking for when they encounter a bully.

    I play roll with them a lot, and when I get them into a submission or dominate position (Very loose sub/position. They are kids), they counter by poking me in the eye, scratching, hitting or kicking.

    The first time my five year old did that it really surprised me. I now keep my head and face tight and hidden when play rolling with the little stinkers.

    But it did remind me that you will get knocked out grappling in a street fight if you do not keep your head and face protected. The Gracies cover this over and over for self defense.
  15. Ben Gash CLF

    Ben Gash CLF Valued Member

    In the UK there's no force scaling provisions, it's reasonable force. If you don't actually kill your opponent it's easy to sell it as reasonable force here ( indeed it's quite difficult to get convictions for attempted murder here and as you've not actually injured him they can't use any of the comparable offences they often use instead). You just need to be clear that your aim was to render them unconscious, which should have been the result.
  16. Ben Gash CLF

    Ben Gash CLF Valued Member

    My BJJ coach taught me that pinning and scrambles are the most important skills in any situation.
  17. Ben Gash CLF

    Ben Gash CLF Valued Member

    I've kimura'd people from punch to pin and I've reverse armbarred plenty.
  18. Mangosteen

    Mangosteen Hold strong not

    On the rare occassions i've visited Roger gracies main academy, the entire first half of every class was learning to stand up and move from the ground and the second half has been pinning and trasitioning
  19. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    Why did I hear that to the tune of 'the unknown stuntman' from the opening credits of The Fall Guy?

    [ame=""]The Fall Guy - The Unknown Stuntman Lee Majors - YouTube[/ame]
  20. GoldShifter

    GoldShifter The MachineGun Roundhouse

    Check out Kajukenbo! :D, if you want to try ground fighting, that'll be great and Kajukenbo is built from the streets for the streets.

    (Yeah I'm back :D)

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