4:53 Karl talks about 'the seni incident' 8:18 talks about the time he was stabbed and the development of the SBG knife 'defence' curriculum. both are relevant to this thread as they hit upon both the BS in knife defence and the reality of a knife attack. [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wdb2hWNJF5U"]YouTube - Karl Tanswell Interview[/ame]
This was the beginnings of my thoughts on this...worth a listen. http://www.iainabernethy.co.uk/content/weapon-defence
Well mostly this seems like a critique of traditional weapon defence techniques such as strips and disarms etc. Those techniques are BS and totally fail to reflect the reality of a knife attack so I'll agree they should be binned. Clearly the broadest objectives of stay away from threat, de-esculate threat, run form threat or eliminate threat are going to be the same... that shouldn't even need saying as they are so general/fundamental. Seems his advice for dealing with a weapon comes down to 'just knock em out'. I genuinely feel that he is oversimplifying things through a conceptual investment in the wholistic nature of kata and failing to show the appropriate respect for the dangers a weapon presents. I'd say that in an attack where you know the assailant is armed with a knife (and this will probably mean your already getting stabbed) you need to control the weapon arm as a priority in order to even begin mounting and assault on the head or neck. this doesn't mean passively attempting to defend or hanging out trying to capture the arm and includes aggressive forward motion and attack. The concept of not using bs knife defence techniques that exist seperately from your core curriculum, does not prohibit you from adapting tactically to the presence of a edged weapon.
Indeed. But Iain's (and by extension mine too) point is that the adaptation should not be massive. It shouldn't be a whole new structure. I really like Karl Tanswell's STAB stuff. I bought it when it first came out. However I have one reservation...it's a bit too proscribed for me. Based around the two on one and the underhook. Which is fair enough as they are great control grips. To my mind the controlling grip should (and will be) whatever you can get in the circumstances. If it's the two on one then that's all good. But if you end up grabbing his watch strap in one hand (for example) you should still use that to control and strike back. I'll admit I'm not *entirely* sold on Iain's POV. The best knife stuff I've seen is Hoch Hockheim's and that is more in line with your take in knife defence. However I do think there is *something* in it that is really key to weapon defence.
Wrong - they are defending themselves AND those around. A knife wielder requires a different set of skills to subdue would you not agree? "Just KO him" oversimplifies things to the point of being silly Not true either. "Fight Mode" is on as soon as a resist happens. When a knife or weapon is produced then tactics change suddenly. This is taught in pretty much EVERY continuum and Service Then things escalate and you had better get an equaliser quick or completely disenegage and leg it Then you will get cut if he lands it - but at least in this instance the mechanics of his strike are identical. That is ridiculous - if someone tries to kick and punch me the strategy I employ will be a lot different than if someone tries to grapple me or stab me. This is shown in MMA events when a fighter changes his tactics to whoever he is fighting. Styles make fights and weapons make tactics - this is universal across personal defense, Law Enforcement and Military. You don't do an airstrike on a submarine Of course it does. I will happily take a couple of shots without worrying too much. I will block, I will enter and work my head, elbows etc. Will I bollocks do the same against a knife! If you would then I am sorry but you are an route to the morgue This is not me attempting to compare nob sizes but you have never faced multiples have you? Again I would not agree with this. At clinch range I can level a guy very quickly and pretty much overwhelm him. And what if the guy you are against is a significantly better striker than you? You had better have a backup plan or you will have a long day
Actually re-reading the above it sound s a little preachy - and it really is not meant to be. What I still maintain is that you cannot just employ the same tactics as the mechanics of the attack shift and what works against one (blocking a punch) will not work any way near as well against another (block will get cut!) My preferred defense against a knife - other than running away - is my own knife
Not entirely. That's kind of my point. Are knife wielders less prone to strikes? Less prone to takedowns? Less prone to joint locks? Harder to control their limbs? No they are not. So you'll need a complete set of skills to deal with a knifer or a puncher. If you can disengage and leg it when he pulls a knife why don't you do that when he was punching you? You see what I'm saying? That's self defence. If you are tied up clinching and kneeing some dude and he pulls a knife you don't magically gain the ability to disengage and leg it. You 'll still have to clinch and knee him in order to disengage. I repeat...if you could get away before the knife why didn't you? The chances are that you will not even know a knife is in the mix until after you've done the dude in. Part of my point is that you won't always know if a weapon is being used. So therefore yuo need to take it into consideration right from the get go. Luckily not. But please tell me...what have I missed out when facing mutiples? Hit a guy, move, hit another guy, try to kep them coming one at a time, try not to fall over, try not to get tied up. Pretty much what ALL of the top self defence guys promote for just facing one guy. I think you've hopefully read enough of my posts to know I fully agree with that. Well rounded skills are paramount as always. What I'm saying is that you can have a tactical structure and approach to self defence that can need minimal adaptation to weapons. And indeed will actually work better if you don't have to overly adapt it as you won't have change tack.
The presence of the blade alone makes a grab a block or a takedown more dangerous for you to execute, so yes absolutely they are harder to deal with. Even an untrained buffoon can cut you and cut you badly. Agreed - but the tactics required to reach the end goal (victory!) will need to be different for each scenario Good point - I would agree with this in broad terms. Sometimes I forget I operate under a different paradigm If you are at the stage when the clinch is engaged I doubt he will be able to get a knife out, but I see what you are saying. Again I concur - civilian wise at least - this should always be a first choice This is not strictly true. You may not know the knife is there prior to AGGRESSION starting, but the knife will appear very quickly when the physucal aspect is "on" as it were Always be on the look out for it, yes, but your tactics are still not universal. The distance, positioning and timing are what differentiates. The delivery system - strikes - is the same, but you require some level of "zoning" practice in order that you can deliver said strikes. Otherwise you are trying to fight 2 or more at once. This cannot be done, but you CAN fight one person 2 or more times (if you appreciate the distinction) I think that we are actually in agreement on pretty much everything - but the devil is always in the details!
What I'm getting at is trying to get away from being like Worzel Gummidge (look it up you non-Brits). Where you have to put on different heads for each scenario. "Excuse me sir you have drawn a knife...please wait while I put on my "knife defence" head." Someone takes a swing I'm going to flinch, strike back with venom and minimse how much damage his limbs can do to me (not by blocking as as Peter Consterdine puts it (IIRC) "blocking is bollocks") but by clinching. Ideally I don't want to compromise that too much to tackle a knife, bottle, bat, fist etc.
Hannibal, i once again have to agree with you about the knife changing the game. It's a lot harder to strike a guy when he's trying to cut you. It's way harder to do anything when they're armed. So yep in essence they are less prone to strikes and conventional fighting methods.
In an MMA bout there is one opponent (not counting the Referee sometimes), and in the street you have no idea if someone is 'carrying', or has several mates in the near vicinity who may not only join in, but also have weapons of some kind. God I learnt that fact in the good old Mods and Rocker days!
if you're on bottom and the guy on top has a knife, there IS a technique you can pull. reach down, grab your ankles, slowly bring your head down, and kiss your **** goodbye.
There is no doubt that a knife or any other weapon changes the situation. However that does not mean that you should switch what you do but instead note it and neutralize the threat if possible. Hopefully your system addresses this from the ground up and tells you to run away if possible or neutralize it if necessary. PASmith and I are in agreement in that you cannot "switch heads" for each situation but need a system in place that addresses the situation on hand and neutralizes it either by running away, empty handedly (if you are in really dire straights) or with your own tool/weapon. (preferably some thing better than they have ) I think though in the end we are more in agreement than disagreement in that none of us wants to deal with a blade/edge tool again or ever for that matter!
I agree that overall we are pretty much in accord. I look at it more as an ability to switch gears rather than heads - a bit like having to change from a punch defense to a shoot defense. I think that the AIM is the same, you just vary how you get there slightly
For the guys bringing the SGB material up (amongst my training I currently train with an SBG group).... My understanding is that the current methodology is that you should have one 'go to' reaction/position for any 'suprise attack'. This is the 'shield' (or three point cover). This works on the premise that you have no idea what's just happened and protected your head, from that point you move dependant on what just happened (move to pike position or fight for the 2on1). In DBMA we have a similar idea in the Dog Catcher structure, in which we fight to achieve the 2on1 or 'position B'. Both look to have a 'finch response' that covers the major 'primal attacks' regardless of the attacker being armed or unarmed. Though with regards to the DBMA material, Guro Marc Denny is of the opinion that unless you're spider sense has gone off (i.e you have read that something is wrong) then with regards to knife defence there is little you can do (so work your awareness is the key point, which we do ).
I agree with Hannibal i think if they pull out a knife & for what ever reason you can't get away, you need to change your game plan less is more, so i don't mean that your ready to fight this guy in Mauy Thai stance than he pulls out a knife & your aikido training kicks in
This is from Starting my own school in a few months forum, Just want to know what you guys think about these SPEAR, FAST, DART, I think i like STAB the best from herbo_ksw post. Thanks again.
I havn't read through the rest of the thread but will offer this. I think you have even picked up on it Killa. When he is talking about strategy, I interpret this as mindset, as an attitude. If he was talking about tactics, then yeah, he is probably talking about the physical side. I think one mindset no matter what is important. Of course, your technical approach can be different depending on the threat. An attacker armed with a knife will require different techniques and tactics to a drunk guy who wants to fight you. But you should try to find techniques and tactics that work in as many situations as possible so you have fewer options to consider under pressure. My 2 pesos. Oh, and love that STAB stuff. Controlling that knife bearing limb is 90% what an effective knife defence system should be. That is the most important part.
